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Blätter wird jetzt auch bei, so stellt auch Goethe das da, werden jetzt letztlich zurückgenommen in den Stängel der
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Genau, und dieses Teil eines größeren Ganzen ist jetzt auch, kann man jetzt auch ein Stück weit noch mit der Pflanze mitgehen, also mit dem Bild der Pflanze mitgehen, weil man sagen kann, das ist eine Selbstbezüglichkeit, aber jetzt eigentlich eine, in der nicht mehr nur die individuelle Pflanze eine Rolle spielt. Weil die individuelle Pflanze vergeht ja.
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Ich mein, im Prinzip ist das ja erstmal auch, wirkt das jetzt so, als würde man sagen, ja das ist ja sowas wie, ähm,
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Genau, in gewisser Weise sind wir, also entsteht unser Denken in diesen Prozessen und bei uns am Denken ist halt das Besondere, dass es diese Prozesse auch noch denkend nachvollziehen kann. Das heißt, die Selbstbezüglichkeit, die wir jetzt bei der Pflanze eben gesehen haben, die ist beim Menschen oder beim geistigen Wesen eine
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Also mein Menschsein, das ist, was mich ausmacht, aber was uns auch verbindet und was auch dazu führt.
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Also heute sind sie nämlich wirklich oft sehr furchtbar, auch im Politischen, das hat sich denke ich auch gezeigt und man kann sich damit auch wirklich sehr viel irgendwie
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Also die Grundidee der Filmologie des Geistes, denke ich, macht Hegel in der Einleitung klar und die würde ich nochmal so reformulieren, dass, ähm, es eigentlich um die Frage geht, was ist Erkenntnis? Das ist eine Frage, die man auch von anderen Philosophen kennt.
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Wie von Kant, aber sagen wir mal einfach für das Kind von anderen Philosophen kennt. Und jetzt macht Hegel von Anfang an auf eine Problematik aufmerksam, die einem beim Beantworten dieser Frage begegnen soll.
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Nämlich um die Frage zu beantworten, was Erkenntnis ist, müsste ich die Frage eigentlich schon immer beantwortet haben, weil ich ja Kriterien brauche.
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Also wenn ich jetzt eine Antwort darauf gebe,
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Woher weiß ich, dass das die richtige Antwort ist? Dafür müsste eigentlich die Antwort, die ich gegeben habe, irgendwie schon vorliegen. Das müsste schon klar sein, dass das die richtige ist. Also ich brauch quasi, ich such den Maßstab für Erkenntnis, aber um den zu finden, brauch ich den Maßstab schon. Das ist so ein bisschen dieses Szenario, was Hegel in der Einleitung irgendwie entwickeln möchte und
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Das ist Erkenntnis, wie Heges Meinung das zum Beispiel bekannt gemacht hat. Hier sind die Kategorien und das sind die notwendigen Bedingungen und so weiter, sondern
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Ich betrachte andere mögliche Vorschläge dazu, was Erkenntnis ist und kritisiere die im Hinblick darauf, was an denen defizitär ist und was an denen bewahrungswert ist. Und das Ergebnis dieses ganzen Prozesses soll dann Hegels eigene Philosophie darstellen.
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Ähm, und, äh, und ja, den Weg darzustellen, das ist es.
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Ja, ganz genau, würde ich auch sagen. Also auch, auch dass man anfängt quasi mit Positionen, die jetzt durchaus noch gar nicht mal stikantische wären, sondern sowas wie eben ganz einfache sinnliche Gewissheit.
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Das wird dann so weiterentwickelt, dass immer klarer wird, es müssen logische Prinzipien angenommen werden, die da strukturierend sind.
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Also zunächst mal würde ich schon sagen, dass man dieses Kapitel, so wie es in der Phänologie auftritt, auch tatsächlich als Schritt auf dem Weg der Beantwortung der Frage, was Erkenntnis ist, ansehen kann. Zur Erkenntnis gehört nämlich, dass ich mich als
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Sie auch, weil es klar sein muss, dass ich nicht an diesem Ding alleine eine Eigenschaft zuschreibe, sondern dass das Zuschreiben von Eigenschaften was ist, was irgendwie gemeinsam stattfindet, was andere machen, was auch mehreren Gegenständen zugeschrieben wird, ist also eine ziemlich komplexe Angelegenheit, wo der andere
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Äh, andere denkende Wesen tatsächlich schon mit vorkommen müssen, damit das überhaupt erfolgreich stattfindet.
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Genau. Ja, also erstmal hat das mit Herrn Knecht zu tun. Also deswegen glaube ich kommt das an dieser Stelle vor, weil Hegel sagen will, dass das nur funktioniert, wenn es eine wirkliche Selbsterkenntnis gibt und die wirkliche Selbsterkenntnis ist nur möglich, wenn ich von jemand anderem auch
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Also was ich gerade bei dem Glas gesagt habe, dass ich ihre Bestätigung brauche, das gilt eben auch für meine Selbsterkenntnis. Ich kann mich nicht alleine erkennen, sondern ich brauche auch da jemanden, der mich als das anerkennt, als was ich mich selbst erkenne.
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Insofern ist das tatsächlich, kann man das erstmal alles noch unter dieser Perspektive anführen für Hegel, was eigentlich Erkenntnis ist.
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Gleichzeitig finde ich es aber auch völlig legitim und auch fruchtbar, das Kapitel jetzt nicht nur in diesem Kontext zu sehen, sondern man kann auch sagen, dass da im Kern eben so eine Anerkennungstheorie, die jetzt einfach praktisch relevant ist und sozialphilosophisch relevant ist, dass die da drin steht. Und das ist die Perspektive, die jetzt zum Beispiel Marx auch eher angenommen hat.
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Ja, also dass eben diese Anerkennungsprozesse, die Hegel da beschreibt, so sind, dass man sagt, man braucht
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Für das eigene Selbstverständnis die Anerkennung als freies Wesen und das kann nur unter Gleichberechtigten stattfinden, nicht wenn asymmetrische Verhältnisse bestehen.
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Also das ist auf jeden Fall eine Dimension. Das andere, was in dem Kapitel eine große Rolle spielt, ist inwiefern unser Bezug auf den Gegenstand auch verschieden.
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Ja, auf. Also ist so, dass man sagen kann, Herr und Knecht beziehen sich aufeinander.
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Ähm, aber es findet keine echte Anerkennung statt, weil der Herr den Knecht nicht als eines gleichen anerkennt und der Knecht auch im asymmetrischen Verhältnis zum Herrn steht, aber gleichzeitig auch vom Herrn nicht die Anerkennung bekommt, die er haben möchte. Aber der Knecht, also sie sind aber auch miteinander vermittelt durch die Produkte oder durch die Gegenstände.
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Ja, Hegel will das jetzt eben umdrehen. Der Herr ist sogar abhängiger vom Knecht. Weil der Herr halt...
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Genau, aber die Entfremdung würde man jetzt noch sagen, das ist tatsächlich, wenn irgendwie die Lebensprozesse einer Gesellschaft insgesamt so sind, dass diese Produktionswege immer länger werden und wir immer weniger direkten Bezug.
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zu irgendwie dem haben, was hergestellt wird. Das ist jetzt in der Filmologie des Geistes durchaus auch Thema, aber jetzt nicht, äh, äh, so primär in dem Kapitel Herr Knecht.
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422<2>3422<2>3422<2>3422<2>3422<2>3422<2>3422<2>3422<2>3422<2>3422<2>1568<2>1532<2>3602<2>1855
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Also ich glaube, entscheidend bei Hegel ist, dass, ähm, es
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Und verschiedene Verhältnisse zu meinen Mitmenschen gibt und diese verschiedenen Verhältnisse auch alle vorkommen.
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Also es gehört quasi auch mit zu unserer, zu unserem differenzierten Dasein dazu, dass wir uns in diesen verschiedenen Beziehungen befinden.
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Ich glaube, das ist ganz wichtig für das, was er ausführen möchte.
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Ähm, und, ähm, und trotzdem könnte man mit Blick auf auch die, das Verhältnis, auf das rechtliche Verhältnis sagen, dass wir beim anderen bei uns selbst sind, in dem Sinne, als dass das uns verbindende, ja, das Menschsein ist und wir dessen, dass wir eben
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Und wird auch ein bisschen anders ausgeführt als jetzt zum Beispiel in rechtlichen Verhältnissen. Aber wir brauchen den anderen immer für dieses gemeinsame Selbstverständnis.
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Ideal quasi, also jetzt nicht im Hegeltschen Sinne, aber das, was wir eigentlich haben wollen, ist Einheit, aber gleichzeitig Akzeptanz der Differenzen.
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Ist der andere aber meinesgleichen? Ist er mit mir irgendwie dasselbe? Wir sind nämlich Menschen. Das macht uns aus.
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Und diese Sachen irgendwie beide gleichermaßen im Blick zu haben, das ist gerade das, was jetzt irgendwie die Beziehung, irgendwie den Beziehungen ihren Wert gibt.
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Und das andere wäre ja eher so ein Modell, wo man sich ganz verliert, äh, und erst durch den anderen, also dann wirklich eine Einheit mit dem anderen herstellt. Das ist in der Liebe mehr so als in rechtlichen Verhältnissen und sicherlich auch
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Natur und Geist und dann bei Geist, subjektiven, objektiven und absoluten Geist. Und das ist jetzt tatsächlich das, was eigentlich die gesamte Wirklichkeit ausmachen soll, also Natur.
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Subjektiv, objektiver und absoluter Geist. Und ich würde denken, dass Hegel,
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Prinzip gibt, was nochmal anderes
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Das ist also das Geistige und den subjektiven Geist, das würde jetzt erstmal all das sein, was jetzt mein anthropologische, diese Ausstattung anbetrifft, der objektive Geist.
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Genau, Psychologie, Anthropologie. Der objektive Geist wären alles die sozialen, rechtlichen Verhältnisse. Und der absolute Geist ist so eine Art von Selbstthematisierung des Geistes.
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Genau, also so, genau, also als eine Art von irgendwie Selbstverständigungsformen unterschiedlicher Art, ja, mit denen, also so wie das am Anfang mit dem, mit der Kritik und der Zeit nochmal gesagt wurde, also die Philosophie betrachtet ja durchaus bestehende Verhältnisse, aber
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Transzendiert diese, indem sie eben denkt, was da eigentlich für Strukturen verwirklicht sind. Und das passiert in anderer Weise, auch in Kunst und Religion. Und dadurch verständigt das geistige Wesen sich auch immer über sich selbst, also der Mensch dann eben in diesen Formen.
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Und die haben zu allen Zeiten stattgefunden und entsprechend haben die eben dann auch selber immer diese Geschichtlichkeit.
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So ein Vokabular zu dieser Zeit irgendwie, äh, tatsächlich auch auftritt, was auch wirklich damit zu tun hat, dass die Menschen Zeitlichkeit irgendwie und ihr Verhältnis dazu sehr stark reflektieren. Und das findet sich auf jeden Fall auch behegel. Also da ist er auch, wie er selber sagt, Kind seiner Zeit.
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Also das geht wieder auf diese Grundidee zurück, dass die individuelle Freiheit eigentlich das ist, was zu bewahren ist. Wenn man aber sich jetzt, wenn man, das würde für Hegel in der Sphäre der bürgerlichen Gesellschaft politisch gesehen so sein. Die bürgerliche Gesellschaft ist die, also ist die Sphäre, in der man tatsächlich die individuellen Freiheiten verfolgt.
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Das führt aber zu Widersprüchen. So Hegel, jetzt kommt wieder diese Idee, dass da eine Negation vorkommt, weil ich das mal mit Menschen dann auch streitig mache und so weiter. Es führt ganz konkret.
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Also Hegel macht da durchaus auch gewisse psychologische Beobachtungen, dass man eben dadurch auch den Wert seines eigenen Lebens irgendwie nicht mehr so klar vor Augen hat.
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Der Staat und die Institutionen da einspringen. Also es gibt innerhalb Hegels durchaus Lösungen dafür, indem der Staat dann zum Beispiel bestimmte Einschränkungen vornimmt und vor allem auch indem die Institutionen zwischen diesem Allgemeingut, was vielleicht sehr
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Ja, das ist richtig, obwohl ich noch mal unterscheiden würde zwischen Äußerungen von Hegel, wo er sich tatsächlich einfach auch in einer bestimmten Weise als konservativ dann gezeigt hat.
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Und dem, was jetzt tatsächlich an Grundidee in seiner politischen Philosophie liegt, was vielleicht jetzt auch durchaus jetzt zum Beispiel im Vergleich zu Marx als konservativ angesehen werden kann.
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Was aber meines Erachtens mit dem anderen jetzt nicht identisch ist. Also Hegel hat dann den preußischen Staat irgendwie auch als ein Staat behandelt, in dem die Freiheit realisiert ist. Ich denke, das hätte er von seiner Philosophie aus in der Form überhaupt nicht machen müssen. Und so auch mit Blick auf andere Sachen. Während dieses, dass die Wirklichkeit vernünftig ist.
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Ich denke, also philosophisch finde ich immer die Frage interessant, inwiefern muss er das überhaupt tun oder inwiefern tut er das, weil er zum Beispiel bestimmte Ängste hat, sei es um sich selbst zu schützen, sei es auch, weil er meint, dass in seiner Zeit doch ein
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Äh, starker Start irgendwie wichtig ist, weil irgendwie da kommt jetzt wieder dieses Thema, dass er irgendwie denkt, vielleicht uffert das sonst aus und das endet alles im Chaos und so.
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Äh, auch interessante Fragen, aber philosophisch finde ich vor allem interessant, sich zu fragen, liegt das jetzt quasi in seiner Grundidee und Anlage? Oder sind das auch Sachen, die er anders hätte ausführen können? Und da muss man halt immer unterscheiden. Ich denke, diese Idee, dass was wirklich ist, ist vernünftig.
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Liegt schon tief in der Grundüberzeugung, Hegelz. Das ist jetzt keine Ängstlichkeit oder kein in dem Sinne oberflächlicher Konservatismus, sondern die liegt schon darin, dass ja
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Und differenzierter, mehr Differenzierung zu lassen, aber gleichzeitig die Einheit bewahrt wird und in dem Sinne dann vernünftig sind.
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Ja, also Karl Marx folgt, glaube ich, der These Hegel's, dass, äh, Geschichte als, äh, Fortschritt im Bewusstsein der Freiheit ist. Worin Marx tatsächlich hier gewiderspricht, ist, dass es eine Harmonisierungsmöglichkeit von bürgerlicher Gesellschaft und Staat gibt.
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Ja, also ich meine, es gibt eine große, also es ist auch strittig, ob, äh, Marx jetzt nicht auch einen Start noch weiter fortsetzen wollte, aber der wäre auf jeden Fall nicht so, dass er diese bürgerliche Gesellschaft bestehen lassen würde.
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Weil der eben dieses Prinzip der Einheit nochmal veranschaulicht.
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Das ist jetzt bei ihm der Monarch und auch noch beherbeentschiedene Monarch aus Überlegungen, die er dann auch anstellt. Das könnte aber auch jemand anders sein. Es braucht aber innerhalb dieser Idee, die er hat, eigentlich nur jemanden, der dieses System auch in einer Person irgendwie repräsentiert.
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Also das, das würde ich denken, ist jetzt noch nicht so, dass es dem demokratischen Grundprinzip irgendwie widersprechen würde.
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Tatsächlich sieht er die, man kann dann irgendwie sich überlegen, inwiefern das heißt, dass die Kunst tatsächlich ihre Rolle ganz verloren hat, ihre Aussagekräftige, das würde sicherlich zu weit gehen. Also warum er sie sieht, ist, weil er denkt, dass es immer eine Art von Selbstverständigung des Menschen gibt. In der ganzen Geschichte gab es Selbstverständigung.
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Genau, also, genau, alles was wir eben jetzt, worüber wir auch gesprochen haben, auch über welche Entwicklung haben wir, wie sind die politischen Verhältnisse, was ist mein Selbstverständnis, was ist eigentlich Gerechtigkeit und so weiter, das wird alles
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Ich denke aber, dass bei der Spiegelmetapher vielleicht ein bisschen zu kurz kommt, dass es tatsächlich
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Die Anerkennung, da haben wir jetzt eben nicht so lang drüber geredet, die Anerkennung ist jetzt tatsächlich etwas, was, wo wichtig ist, dass das Wechselseitig stattfindet. Also, dass ich nicht nur mich in ihn erkenne, sondern sie sich auch in mir. Also diese beiden Sachen, das müssen von zwei.
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Genau, und dann würde Held Hegel sagen, dass man, dass der Mensch sich in diesem Sinne auch entwickelt. Ein bisschen so, wie wir gerade gesagt haben, nur jetzt von Hegel wieder sehr aufgeladen, dass es tatsächlich verschiedene Phasen gibt, in denen diese Formen der Selbstverständigung sich dann auch entwickeln und modifizieren und immer komplexer werden.
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Ziemlich basal ist, dass ich mich irgendwie eher in anschauender Weise über mich selbst verständige. Das passiert in der Kunst, also quasi bildlich.
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In der Religion mache ich das eher in vorstellender Weise. Das heißt zum Beispiel, um meine Freiheit zu erkennen, denke ich ein Wesen, was nur frei ist, das ist Gott.
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Also es ist jetzt natürlich eine bestimmte Herkunft, aber da hat diese ganze Reli-, also haben diese ganzen religionsphilosophischen Aspekte schon klar, auch die, dass daran etwas erkannt wird, nämlich was Freiheit überhaupt ist und so.
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Das heißt, ich stelle mir das nicht mehr vor als ein Gott, der irgendwas macht, sondern ich durchlaufe eben diese logischen Denkprozesse so wie Hegel meint, dass er das in der Wissenschaft der Logik.
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Und in dem, also ne, weil er diese Thesen hat, ist es auch klar, dass sowohl innerhalb der Kunst eine gewisse Entwicklung stattfindet, also auch verschiedene Kunstformen sind zu verschiedenen Zeiten die ausschlaggebenden.
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Nun können wir natürlich, also und das sagen auch viele, noch immer sagen, dass diese anschauende Form der Selbstverständigung für uns trotzdem auch noch relevant bleibt, auch wenn wir eben denkende Wesen sind und jetzt irgendwie uns auch in dieser Form des Denkens irgendwie in der Weise verständigen können.
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Dem muss jetzt Hegel nicht unbedingt widersprechen, aber er hat schon die These, dass das uns jetzt am angemessen, die uns jetzt am angemessensten Form der Selbstverständigung die Philosophie ist.
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So dass die Philosophie jetzt so in dem Sinne dann mehr zu sagen hätte als die Kunst, einer These, der viele und ich auch jetzt nicht zustimmen.
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Auch zum Beispiel im zwischenmenschlichen Bereich. Ich denke, dass diese Ideen von ihm zur Anerkennung
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Zu dem auch, was es für Formen von Anerkennung gibt, inwiefern wir unsere Mitmenschen brauchen, auch um uns selber zu verstehen oder sogar auch um die Natur zu erkennen, dass diese Ideen von Hege alle heute relevant sind und, ähm, dass man auch
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Ich denke schon, dass man Hegel ein Stück weit in seiner Art zu philosophieren folgen kann. In dem Sinne, also nicht weil ich Hegel in jetzt allen Sachen Recht geben würde oder so, sondern eher weil dieses irgendwie
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Die Komplexität eher nutzen, um zu überlegen, wie Sachen miteinander verbunden sind. Das halte ich schon für einen sehr faszinierenden und auch schon sehr attraktiven Zug. Man kommt tatsächlich
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Also mein Verständnis von Philosophie ist insgesamt jetzt nicht so, dass man jemandem zustimmen muss, damit man ihn für einen wichtigen Philosophen hält. Und tatsächlich, also über vieles, über das wir so geredet haben, bei vielen Sachen würde ich Hegel nicht zustimmen. Ich mein, Hegel ist in dem Sinne ja ein Fortschrittsphilosoph, ich zum Beispiel nicht. Aber ich finde,
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Ja, ich denke schon, dass jetzt das, was ihr zu Frauen sagt, zu Rassen sagt, das sind alles Sachen, ähm, wo, ähm, die man einfach, wo man einfach sich klar distanzieren muss. Da ist es auch dann wieder eine interessante philosophische Frage, inwiefern das jetzt Sachen sind, die ihr einfach so beiläufig auch mal geäußert hat, oder ob die nicht zum Teil tatsächlich mit der
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Also bei den Äußerungen über den Frauen kann man sich das ja klar verdeutlichen. Erst denkt man so, was er über Frauen sagt, es stimmt halt einfach nicht und das lässt man dann halt weg.
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Aber wenn man sich so anguckt, dass er die Sphäre des Rechts von der Sphäre der Familie unterscheiden will und bei dieser Sphäre der Familie dann irgendwie eher sowas hat, wie es man vielleicht ganz plakativ sagen müsste, sodass die verschiedenen Parteien bestimmte Rollen einnehmen.
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Also welche der anderen Aussagen man dann auch noch alle aufgeben muss oder wie man die modifizieren kann, so dass man sie doch weiter vertreten kann. Aber da gibt es natürlich viele Sachen, wo ich sagen würde, jetzt so im Sinne von, könnte ich das nicht doch glauben oder nicht, fallen die einfach raus.
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Diese Auffassung von Philosophie ist schon eine sehr eurozentrische, ne? Also was ist eigentlich Philosophie? Das, denke ich, kann man heute auch auf jeden Fall nicht mehr so sagen.
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Ich gehe barfuß.
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Also dadurch, dass wir eben Schwimmen, Radfahren und Laufen trainieren oder uns das auch Spaß macht, ist es im Allgäu natürlich perfekt. Also wie man sieht, haben wir es im Allgäu echt schön, um unseren Sport auszuüben, ja.
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Und, eh, am liebsten auch sogar zusammen in das Ziel einlaufen, also irgendwie das einfach zusammen erleben, weil es viel schöner ist, wie alleine.
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Mir ging es ja persönlich am Anfang auch so, dass ich echt froh war, um Tipps von erfahrenen Sportler-Neutri-Athleten bekommen habe.
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So mit dem Sattel, dann gibt's einfach so ein Sattel, der für Mädels gut passt oder auch, ähm, weil hier Sitzpreuster in der Hose perfekt ist oder besser ist für jemand. Sich da einfach auszutauschen und von anderen zu lernen, weil, ähm, ja, ich denk, dafür sind wir da und, ähm, das ist dann schön, so eine Gemeinschaft zu haben, wo man da was lernt davon.
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Aber das ist ja das Schöne, dass jeder so ist, wie er ist und da muss man sich irgendwie nicht verstellen oder, ähm, hinter Schminke oder hinter Klamotten, sondern, ähm, jeder zeigt seine wahren Gesichter quasi. Ja.
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Eigentlich hat immer jeder so sein eigenes Geheimrezept und das wird oft nicht verraten, weil er Käse und wie. Aber, ähm, die hier sind wirklich echt top.
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Komme sofort, einen Moment bitte. So, jetzt Sie möchten bezahlen, das waren?
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Ava sitzt auf der Treppe und hält Tulpen in ihrer rechten Hand.
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Zu Ostern gibt es zwei extra große Cupcakes.
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