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True but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves"
] |
>
I think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just "I want to give birth:.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t."
] |
>
I agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:."
] |
>
Do we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby."
] |
>
There are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies."
] |
>
Sure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children"
] |
>
No they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function .."
] |
>
There are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt.
That kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't "focus more" and then have more babies available for adoption.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting"
] |
>
I think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption."
] |
>
You are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own.
It may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity.
As a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how
most parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise.
However, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other."
] |
>
Pretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren."
] |
>
In my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$
*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate."
] |
>
What world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom"
] |
>
its a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child."
] |
>
There are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult"
] |
>
Still. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns"
] |
>
I agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't."
] |
>
This point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other."
] |
>
Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.
Adopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/"
] |
>
Sure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this."
] |
>
the timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?"
] |
>
We are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts.
Some people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired.
You can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies."
] |
>
Again, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it.
Can I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner?
Additionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it."
] |
>
hmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else.
I think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make.
Yes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological."
] |
>
Thanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children."
] |
>
I do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic."
] |
>
It's cheaper if you import them though.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k"
] |
>
It's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though."
] |
>
There is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens."
] |
>
The numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children."
] |
>
I agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support."
] |
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Would it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?
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[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place."
] |
>
I agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?"
] |
>
There are "only" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view."
] |
>
The actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.
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[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?"
] |
>
Like I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...
Now if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP."
] |
>
In other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids."
] |
>
I think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment."
] |
>
Be the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant."
] |
>
As others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers.
I think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to."
] |
>
Well maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system."
] |
>
Responsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point."
] |
>
While I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't "morally" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol"
] |
>
These are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.
I wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back."
] |
>
Nope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies."
] |
>
It’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”.
While there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.
The US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting.
The suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population.
There are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.
It sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home."
] |
>
Although there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get "social points" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more "defective" than other children.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole."
] |
>
Self centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children."
] |
>
This is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know"
] |
>
Adoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had "good adoptions" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage.
Warning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so)."
] |
>
Hmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized."
] |
>
Adoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight."
] |
>
We can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption.
Having a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements."
] |
>
well i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same."
] |
>
True but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves"
] |
>
I think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just "I want to give birth:.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t."
] |
>
I agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:."
] |
>
Do we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby."
] |
>
There are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies."
] |
>
Sure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children"
] |
>
No they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function .."
] |
>
There are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt.
That kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't "focus more" and then have more babies available for adoption.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting"
] |
>
I think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption."
] |
>
You are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own.
It may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity.
As a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how
most parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise.
However, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other."
] |
>
Pretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren."
] |
>
In my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$
*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate."
] |
>
What world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom"
] |
>
its a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child."
] |
>
You can think about this from the perspective of life in general.
Since the beginning of life on earth natural selection has selected for organism that pass on their genes. If I don't pass on my genes, then those genes stop existing. Humans use a K reproductive strategy, we have few offspring and invest heavily into them. We're inclined to do this because any of us who are not inclined to do this just stop existing.
I don't think you can really suggest a change to this, we can't just dismiss the pressure applied by natural selection. At least not in the long term, over a small number of generations the effect of natural selection is small. In the long term the care givers who aren't passing on their genes would eventually have those altruistic genes removed from the gene pool, and that would be bad.
Does this make biological parents self-centered, I guess so. They are really centered on passing down their genes, same as every other life form.
Human, I believe, are more complicated than this. Because besides genes we also have ideology. You can imbued the children of breeders with the ideology of the care givers. But children with genes who reject this attitude are the ones who would procreate so eventually all the procreators would reject the care giver ideology in favor of breeding. Then you'd be back where you started. We're pushing against a force much strong then us, we can't beat natural selection.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult"
] |
>
There are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nYou can think about this from the perspective of life in general.\nSince the beginning of life on earth natural selection has selected for organism that pass on their genes. If I don't pass on my genes, then those genes stop existing. Humans use a K reproductive strategy, we have few offspring and invest heavily into them. We're inclined to do this because any of us who are not inclined to do this just stop existing. \nI don't think you can really suggest a change to this, we can't just dismiss the pressure applied by natural selection. At least not in the long term, over a small number of generations the effect of natural selection is small. In the long term the care givers who aren't passing on their genes would eventually have those altruistic genes removed from the gene pool, and that would be bad.\nDoes this make biological parents self-centered, I guess so. They are really centered on passing down their genes, same as every other life form.\nHuman, I believe, are more complicated than this. Because besides genes we also have ideology. You can imbued the children of breeders with the ideology of the care givers. But children with genes who reject this attitude are the ones who would procreate so eventually all the procreators would reject the care giver ideology in favor of breeding. Then you'd be back where you started. We're pushing against a force much strong then us, we can't beat natural selection."
] |
>
Still. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nYou can think about this from the perspective of life in general.\nSince the beginning of life on earth natural selection has selected for organism that pass on their genes. If I don't pass on my genes, then those genes stop existing. Humans use a K reproductive strategy, we have few offspring and invest heavily into them. We're inclined to do this because any of us who are not inclined to do this just stop existing. \nI don't think you can really suggest a change to this, we can't just dismiss the pressure applied by natural selection. At least not in the long term, over a small number of generations the effect of natural selection is small. In the long term the care givers who aren't passing on their genes would eventually have those altruistic genes removed from the gene pool, and that would be bad.\nDoes this make biological parents self-centered, I guess so. They are really centered on passing down their genes, same as every other life form.\nHuman, I believe, are more complicated than this. Because besides genes we also have ideology. You can imbued the children of breeders with the ideology of the care givers. But children with genes who reject this attitude are the ones who would procreate so eventually all the procreators would reject the care giver ideology in favor of breeding. Then you'd be back where you started. We're pushing against a force much strong then us, we can't beat natural selection.",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns"
] |
>
I agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nYou can think about this from the perspective of life in general.\nSince the beginning of life on earth natural selection has selected for organism that pass on their genes. If I don't pass on my genes, then those genes stop existing. Humans use a K reproductive strategy, we have few offspring and invest heavily into them. We're inclined to do this because any of us who are not inclined to do this just stop existing. \nI don't think you can really suggest a change to this, we can't just dismiss the pressure applied by natural selection. At least not in the long term, over a small number of generations the effect of natural selection is small. In the long term the care givers who aren't passing on their genes would eventually have those altruistic genes removed from the gene pool, and that would be bad.\nDoes this make biological parents self-centered, I guess so. They are really centered on passing down their genes, same as every other life form.\nHuman, I believe, are more complicated than this. Because besides genes we also have ideology. You can imbued the children of breeders with the ideology of the care givers. But children with genes who reject this attitude are the ones who would procreate so eventually all the procreators would reject the care giver ideology in favor of breeding. Then you'd be back where you started. We're pushing against a force much strong then us, we can't beat natural selection.",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't."
] |
>
This point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nYou can think about this from the perspective of life in general.\nSince the beginning of life on earth natural selection has selected for organism that pass on their genes. If I don't pass on my genes, then those genes stop existing. Humans use a K reproductive strategy, we have few offspring and invest heavily into them. We're inclined to do this because any of us who are not inclined to do this just stop existing. \nI don't think you can really suggest a change to this, we can't just dismiss the pressure applied by natural selection. At least not in the long term, over a small number of generations the effect of natural selection is small. In the long term the care givers who aren't passing on their genes would eventually have those altruistic genes removed from the gene pool, and that would be bad.\nDoes this make biological parents self-centered, I guess so. They are really centered on passing down their genes, same as every other life form.\nHuman, I believe, are more complicated than this. Because besides genes we also have ideology. You can imbued the children of breeders with the ideology of the care givers. But children with genes who reject this attitude are the ones who would procreate so eventually all the procreators would reject the care giver ideology in favor of breeding. Then you'd be back where you started. We're pushing against a force much strong then us, we can't beat natural selection.",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other."
] |
>
|
[
"Newborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/",
">\n\nNewborn adoptions can take up to 7 years. That's a very long time for most people and might put them at a stage of life where they can no longer justify having the child.\nAdopting from foster care is extremely difficult emotionally, for both the child and the parents, so first time parents would probably get walloped by this.",
">\n\nSure but if society put significant stock into adoption over over the standard biological route, wouldn’t that result in policy shift and tightening timelines? With so few babies/children available for adopt, would the pool of eligible, “parent ready”, adopters be quite large?",
">\n\nthe timelines are waiting to move up the list. There are not enough babies.",
">\n\nWe are genetically programmed to derive pleasure from procreation. Both physical and mental. Furthermore we are genetically programmed to fall head over heels in love with our biologic children. This is why people say you have to experience it to understand it. The type of love you feel for your biologic child is difficult to describe. I would gladly die for my daughter. If you would have told me that 3 years ago I would think you're fucking nutts. \nSome people may feel the same way about the non biologic kids they adopt. But a lot simply don't. It's not something society teaches you. It's just how human beings are wired. \nYou can promote it all you want. But don't have unrealistic expectations about it.",
">\n\nAgain, I haven’t done it so I have not experienced it. \nCan I ask if you’ve ever have or currently feel, that you would happily die for your partner? \nAdditionally, I have non-biological “friends” that I outright feel as family in the same manner as even my twin. A lot of people feel this way about the closest friends. Again, maybe the biological parent exceeds the non-biological.",
">\n\nhmmmmmm yeah I would die for my wife if I had to. But that one is more out of a sense of duty than anything. I never felt even remotely that way about anyone else. \nI think you're overestimating how much of our reproductive instinct is learned versus how much of it is inherited. Human beings crave their own biologic children because of how their brains are wired. Not because someone told them so. Which is really the point I was trying to make. \nYes you can fall in love with your friends and what not. Some can anyway. But most average people only feel this way for a select group of people. Usually their immediate family, significant other, and more so than anything children.",
">\n\nThanks for the reply. I think I need to research biological drivers in humans related to our offspring. I’m sure I won’t have trouble finding literature on the topic.",
">\n\nI do not know about you but I don’t have an extra 50k",
">\n\nIt's cheaper if you import them though.",
">\n\nIt's not. You have to pay for them to get to your country and pay for them to become citizens.",
">\n\nThere is already way more demand for new born adoptions than there are babies to be adopted. Adopting a new born when you can have your own children is really just taking away that option for a couple that may not otherwise be able to have children. The children that need adoptions tend to be older children that often have issues that need special attention. For the right kind of person adopting those children would be great, but I disagree that the average parent should consider this over having their own children.",
">\n\nThe numbers are definitely low but around 10% of kids up for adoption never get adopted. That’s quite a lot of kids turning 18 in foster care without parental love, guidance and support.",
">\n\nI agree it would be better if those kids could find loving homes, I just don't think society should be encouraging everyone to adopt instead of have their own children. If the children have special needs they should be matched with parents that can provide that. There's lots of stories of parents adopting older children and realizing they were in over their heads and even returning the children to foster care. Imo that's worse than if they were never adopted in the first place.",
">\n\nWould it not be better for society to promote sex education, access to birth control, and abortion to help stem the flow of orphaned children? This way it 'solves' the problem before it occurs or at least lessens it?",
">\n\nI agree that sex education, along with other education for societal ills, is important. I think it’s important but not an answer to my question/view.",
">\n\nThere are \"only\" around 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in the USA, which is statistically irrelevant. Certainly not enough to maintain population growth. Promoting adoption over natural birth is only one option - why not promote adoption alongside birth? Or better fund state care and solutions for collectivist raising of these children?",
">\n\nThe actual amount to adoptable children is definitely relevant. Nevertheless, shouldn’t society put more value in adoption over having a biological child? I conceded population growth as a fact/issue in my OP.",
">\n\nLike I feel you need to look at the numbers 100k are up for adoption thats a piddly 2.5% of the ~4million babies a year we have up to 2 million families waiting to adopt a baby. Your really missing the supply of adoptable babies. Litterly 20x the number of babies available are desired for adaption...\nNow if you look at the older kids that's it's own mess why buy into a likely overly taxing situation if you can have your own non traumatized kids.",
">\n\nIn other words, you want us to raise the children of people who do not agree with that sentiment.",
">\n\nI think the benefit that these children would receive certainly outweighs bothering to consider the biological parents viewpoints. I truly think their view is irrelevant.",
">\n\nBe the change man, don’t procreate. Adopt. I on the other hand don’t want to.",
">\n\nAs others have said, there are far more couples looking to adopt babies than there are babies. That doesn't solve the older kids in the system but there's hardly an alternative as you can't force couples to take in teenagers. \nI think advocating for proper sexual education, preferably from parents, but in any capacity will do as long as it is effective. Valuing abstaining from sex until you're in a committed relationship at least is a great way to prevent future children going into the system.",
">\n\nWell maybe not abstaining but responsible sex lol. But I catch your point.",
">\n\nResponsible sex would be a viable option if all these kids would practice it lol",
">\n\nWhile I agree, I don't think you understand how difficult adopting can be. Many countries have what are called morality clauses when it comes to adopting. What does this mean? Well, if they don't \"morally\" agree with your lifestyle, they can veto your adoption while keeping the money you paid. Basically, if you're not the right religion, race, political leanings, sexual orientation, they will tell you no. Some countries, if you've ever had depression or anxiety of any form, will automatically disqualify you. Even if it was just temporary or is easily controlled with medication. Some countries will not allow you to adopt babies unless they have special needs such as ASD, Down syndrome, etc. And if you adopt older, it's a good chance the child will still have severe issues, and not every parent is capable of handling that. And let's not get started on the questionable legality and morality of some adoptions. Adopting isn't a cut and dry thing, and it can actually be extremely difficult to near impossible. Not to mention how expensive it is that the person could end up paying all that money, time, and heartache to be denied in the end. And you're not getting that money back.",
">\n\nThese are good points. Definitely spells out other’s theme of the pure difficulty of adoption.\nI wasn’t aware of the degree of bigoted determinations for adoption. While society can pressure you regarding an interracial baby, they can’t really (unless you’re in some really messed up places) stop you from bumping uglies.",
">\n\nNope, they can't, and yes, there is a lot of bigotry when it comes to adoption. It's really sad because you would think what these countries would care more about a child having a loving home.",
">\n\nIt’s a myth that there are many adoptable infants “in need of a home”. \nWhile there are a larger number of adoptable children, the vast majority of the population of adoptable children consists of children with physical/medical/mental disabilities, sibling groups, older children, and children for whom open adoption or contact with parents is preferred/recommended. These are not adoptions most adoptive parents are looking for, due both to the socialized expectations prospective parents have about what a parent-child relationship looks like and in some cases due to just capacity to manage additional needs.\nThe US has a “domestic supply issue” when it comes to adoptable infants. Some estimates suggest there are 20 applicant parents for every one adoptable infant birth - it’s highly competitive already so it’s hard to argue that there ought to be more people adopting. \nThe suggestion that people adopt these non-newborn kids should be well taken. It’s obviously tragic that some kids remain in foster/residential care until they “age out”. But even if all of those kids are adopted and continued to be adopted, that doesn’t represent a large population of the total child population. \nThere are about 3.5m births each year in the US - there are about 100,000 adoptable children, the math just doesn’t math. Even with 3.5m live births, we still face concerns about an aging population and a relatively low birth rate. If anything, more people need to reproduce to ensure there are enough young people in our society.\nIt sounds like a nice sentiment but adoption and biological parenting are neither mutually exclusive or interchangeable - there are nowwhere near the numbers of adoptable children as there are presently live births. None of these even begins to touch on the issues with adoption, particularly adoption trauma, the power dynamics of adoption, coercion, classism, racism, and misogyny in adoption, the role of Christian evangelism in adoption, and all of that times 100 with international adoption. Adoption (as practiced in the US) is not even necessarily a good solution for adoptable kids, never mind as a whole.",
">\n\nAlthough there are valid pragmatic concerns around adoption, I don't think this is best treated as an issue of virtue. People should not get \"social points\" for adopting a child. It's a roundabout way of saying that an adopted child is inherently more \"defective\" than other children.",
">\n\nSelf centered is a strange way to look at it. Idk how old you are but pretty much all my friends/co workers/ family get pregnant on accident. I think if you adopt you’ve already got your shit together, as in own your house, your comfortable in your career, and your just spirituality ready. But for 99% of people you’ll never feel “ready.” You grow up with your kids, it’s a part of life you know",
">\n\nThis is 100% true. I’m in my mid-thirties with a stable career. I just don’t feel “ready” yet. If it was an “accident” and my partner and I were having a baby, I’d be alright (lol I like to hope so).",
">\n\nAdoption is trauma. It is removing children from their biological families. A loss that follows them for life, even if they know their bio parents. Too many people think that by adopting newborns, the child will not have any trauma, but this is just wishful thinking on the adoptive parent's part. Social media and the adoption Reddit are full of adoptees talking about how much they lost by being adopted. Even the ones who had \"good adoptions\" struggle with feelings of abandonment, anger, identity-issues, loss, etc. Kids in foster care who are available for adoption have gone through even more trauma. As altruistic as it may seem to just tell people to adopt. The truth is, most people shouldn't. Adopting requires being trauma-informed, understanding, not jealous of the child's bio family, and willing to put the child's interests first. In a perfect world, we would have no need for adoption. It isn't a perfect world, so the least we can do is make sure that the people who are adopting children are doing it for the right reasons and in a way that causes the least amount of damage. \nWarning: If you begin looking into adoptee voices, you will quickly discover that many believe adoption should only ever be a last resort, with legal guardianship and kinship placements being prioritized.",
">\n\nHmmm. Interesting. I didn’t know this was a Reddit sub. Thanks for the insight.",
">\n\nAdoption got some tough hurdles and can be very expensive, not everyone can meet the requirements.",
">\n\nWe can change/expedite and support the process as a society and I think we naturally would if we put more emphasis on adoption. \nHaving a baby biologically and bringing it hope from the adoption center are, all things being equal (health on both side, money, age), the same.",
">\n\nwell i think the root of this problem is to try to lower the amount of kids being born that are being sent out to adoption. but there's a biological reason why people want their own kids, it's passing down your genetics. with that being said though i think adoption is great for anyone who wants to or might not be able to have kids themselves",
">\n\nTrue but society is pushing the opposite - not to turn this in to a Supreme Court debate. Pleas don’t.",
">\n\nI think there is a big fact you're missing here. There aren't a lot of babies to adopt. There are a lot of kids who are up for adoption, but they tend to be older. Adopting older kids will be harder, they generally don't get into the system because their life was great leading up to it which will introduce more parenting challenges. I'm not saying people shouldn't adopt them, but it will be more different than just \"I want to give birth:.",
">\n\nI agree. But I didn’t mean to focus on “babies” but just non-adults. I think it is much more impressive to adopt a 9 year old with known health issues then it is to have your own baby.",
">\n\nDo we not find adoption virtous? If your argument is that it doesn't happen as often as I'd like then that's true, but then none of your CMV applies.",
">\n\nThere are already 20 people looking to adopt for every child that goes up for adoption. The numbers for adoption are low because the vast majority of women that give birth want to keep their children",
">\n\nSure, but 10% of those children never get adoptive parents. Society should fix the impediments driving this and putting more stock in adoption should act as a forcing function ..",
">\n\nNo they don't, you are thinking of foster care, it is illegal to foster kids with the intent of adopting",
">\n\nThere are 36 families waiting to adobt for every baby that is available to adopt. \nThat kinda makes your plan dead on arrival. You can't \"focus more\" and then have more babies available for adoption.",
">\n\nI think we should just let people choose how they want to be parents themselves instead of promoting a certain way as better or more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nYou are (apparently) young (under 40), male, unmarried, and have no children of your own. \nIt may be too harsh to say that you have not lived long enough to understand your own humanity. \nAs a parent of grown children, I can assure you that my heart jumps when I hear a child cry no matter whose child it is. That is how \nmost parents react in my experience. So, that plays well to your premise. \nHowever, as a grandfather, I see my own immortality in my grandchildren.",
">\n\nPretty much everywhere but Africa and some middle eastern countries is currently dealing with a collapsing birth rate which while it may have some positives when it comes to resource consumption is going to wreak havoc on society. At a point when almost all of us are going to be suffering from an insufficient number of young people either now in the case of Germany and Russia or in 20 years time in the healthier parts of the west it doesn't seem like a good thing to try and further suppress the birth rate.",
">\n\nIn my opinion, the reason having biological children is so romanticized is because there is a higher likelihood for future profit if the children who have been abandoned, remain abandoned(not saying all children up for adoption are mistreated or had bad biological parents, the reason for the child being up for adoption/without caretakers isn’t relevant) It’s a sad thing but kids that grow up in the system without a stable home/family/support system are more likely to end up incarcerated and prisons in America are big business. It’s always all about the $$$\n*Edit because i didn’t really make my point clear in terms of changing view. I agree adoption should be more encouraged but i do not agree that the people who chose to have bio kids instead of adopting did it out of selfishness or narcissism but instead due to cultural and media influences that encourage procreation both to pad the workforce and ensure that the very bottom rung is kept at the bottom",
">\n\nWhat world do you live in where society doesn't view willingness and intention to adopt as virtuous? Where I'm from you'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't consider it virtuous. Even with changing the criteria to more virtuous than having biological children it's not implausible that a majority already agrees with the idea. The thing is there aren't enough kids available for adoption to give one to everyone who wants a child. So any way you slice for the vast majority the option will never be adoption vs biological child it will be biological child vs no child.",
">\n\nits a good view but i think naturally people just dont want to raise other peoples' children. its just biology. people love sex and also having emotional connection to a baby that isn't yours is probably difficult",
">\n\nYou can think about this from the perspective of life in general.\nSince the beginning of life on earth natural selection has selected for organism that pass on their genes. If I don't pass on my genes, then those genes stop existing. Humans use a K reproductive strategy, we have few offspring and invest heavily into them. We're inclined to do this because any of us who are not inclined to do this just stop existing. \nI don't think you can really suggest a change to this, we can't just dismiss the pressure applied by natural selection. At least not in the long term, over a small number of generations the effect of natural selection is small. In the long term the care givers who aren't passing on their genes would eventually have those altruistic genes removed from the gene pool, and that would be bad.\nDoes this make biological parents self-centered, I guess so. They are really centered on passing down their genes, same as every other life form.\nHuman, I believe, are more complicated than this. Because besides genes we also have ideology. You can imbued the children of breeders with the ideology of the care givers. But children with genes who reject this attitude are the ones who would procreate so eventually all the procreators would reject the care giver ideology in favor of breeding. Then you'd be back where you started. We're pushing against a force much strong then us, we can't beat natural selection.",
">\n\nThere are already more people looking to adopt than children that go up for adoption. And it isn't by some slim margin, it is around 2 million people looking to adopt compared to 100k newborns",
">\n\nStill. If you need hormones to breed you shouldn't.",
">\n\nI agree with the general idea of adoption over biological birth, but virtually everywhere, adoption processes heavily favor the wealthy (for obvious reasons), and are in general very discriminatory, to the point where in many places adoption is inaccessible to those in the lower levels of society, or those that don't conform to the traditional family structure, minorities, etc. So I would hold on on society calling one option more virtuous than the other.",
">\n\nThis point, as posted by others, is probably the most significant that would lead me to changing my view. My view would be changed due to my inherent pessimism, though - unfortunately :/"
] |
“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.
There was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”
…what a great place to live.
|
[] |
>
Can't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason.
Yet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢
PS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines.
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live."
] |
>
2020-2021 Belarusian protests
The 2020–2021 Belarusian protests were a series of mass political demonstrations and protests against the Belarusian government and President Alexander Lukashenko. The largest anti-government protests in the history of Belarus, the demonstrations began in the lead-up to and during the 2020 presidential election, in which Lukashenko sought his sixth term in office. In response to the demonstrations, a number of relatively small pro-government rallies were held. The protests intensified nationwide after the official election results were announced on the night of 9 August, in which Lukashenko was declared the winner.
^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live.",
">\n\nCan't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason. \nYet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢\nPS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines."
] |
>
Didin't they elect a woman to be the president of Belarus, but Lukashenko ignored it and stayed leader, and the woman, the real president of belarus lives in exile???
i must admit the limit of my in depth knowledge of Belarus is pretty much limited to that Lukashenko is a dictator, an asshole, an idiot, and a puppet.
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live.",
">\n\nCan't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason. \nYet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢\nPS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines.",
">\n\n2020-2021 Belarusian protests \n\nThe 2020–2021 Belarusian protests were a series of mass political demonstrations and protests against the Belarusian government and President Alexander Lukashenko. The largest anti-government protests in the history of Belarus, the demonstrations began in the lead-up to and during the 2020 presidential election, in which Lukashenko sought his sixth term in office. In response to the demonstrations, a number of relatively small pro-government rallies were held. The protests intensified nationwide after the official election results were announced on the night of 9 August, in which Lukashenko was declared the winner.\n\n^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)"
] |
>
Yes and early on in war she was vocal to support ukraine
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live.",
">\n\nCan't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason. \nYet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢\nPS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines.",
">\n\n2020-2021 Belarusian protests \n\nThe 2020–2021 Belarusian protests were a series of mass political demonstrations and protests against the Belarusian government and President Alexander Lukashenko. The largest anti-government protests in the history of Belarus, the demonstrations began in the lead-up to and during the 2020 presidential election, in which Lukashenko sought his sixth term in office. In response to the demonstrations, a number of relatively small pro-government rallies were held. The protests intensified nationwide after the official election results were announced on the night of 9 August, in which Lukashenko was declared the winner.\n\n^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)",
">\n\nDidin't they elect a woman to be the president of Belarus, but Lukashenko ignored it and stayed leader, and the woman, the real president of belarus lives in exile???\ni must admit the limit of my in depth knowledge of Belarus is pretty much limited to that Lukashenko is a dictator, an asshole, an idiot, and a puppet."
] |
>
Such is life in most countries that are pro Russia. Authoritarianism at its finest.
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live.",
">\n\nCan't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason. \nYet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢\nPS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines.",
">\n\n2020-2021 Belarusian protests \n\nThe 2020–2021 Belarusian protests were a series of mass political demonstrations and protests against the Belarusian government and President Alexander Lukashenko. The largest anti-government protests in the history of Belarus, the demonstrations began in the lead-up to and during the 2020 presidential election, in which Lukashenko sought his sixth term in office. In response to the demonstrations, a number of relatively small pro-government rallies were held. The protests intensified nationwide after the official election results were announced on the night of 9 August, in which Lukashenko was declared the winner.\n\n^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)",
">\n\nDidin't they elect a woman to be the president of Belarus, but Lukashenko ignored it and stayed leader, and the woman, the real president of belarus lives in exile???\ni must admit the limit of my in depth knowledge of Belarus is pretty much limited to that Lukashenko is a dictator, an asshole, an idiot, and a puppet.",
">\n\nYes and early on in war she was vocal to support ukraine"
] |
>
Oh yeah, someone is getting cold feet. Fascists unite!
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live.",
">\n\nCan't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason. \nYet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢\nPS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines.",
">\n\n2020-2021 Belarusian protests \n\nThe 2020–2021 Belarusian protests were a series of mass political demonstrations and protests against the Belarusian government and President Alexander Lukashenko. The largest anti-government protests in the history of Belarus, the demonstrations began in the lead-up to and during the 2020 presidential election, in which Lukashenko sought his sixth term in office. In response to the demonstrations, a number of relatively small pro-government rallies were held. The protests intensified nationwide after the official election results were announced on the night of 9 August, in which Lukashenko was declared the winner.\n\n^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)",
">\n\nDidin't they elect a woman to be the president of Belarus, but Lukashenko ignored it and stayed leader, and the woman, the real president of belarus lives in exile???\ni must admit the limit of my in depth knowledge of Belarus is pretty much limited to that Lukashenko is a dictator, an asshole, an idiot, and a puppet.",
">\n\nYes and early on in war she was vocal to support ukraine",
">\n\nSuch is life in most countries that are pro Russia. Authoritarianism at its finest."
] |
>
"Hey I've seen this one!"
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live.",
">\n\nCan't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason. \nYet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢\nPS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines.",
">\n\n2020-2021 Belarusian protests \n\nThe 2020–2021 Belarusian protests were a series of mass political demonstrations and protests against the Belarusian government and President Alexander Lukashenko. The largest anti-government protests in the history of Belarus, the demonstrations began in the lead-up to and during the 2020 presidential election, in which Lukashenko sought his sixth term in office. In response to the demonstrations, a number of relatively small pro-government rallies were held. The protests intensified nationwide after the official election results were announced on the night of 9 August, in which Lukashenko was declared the winner.\n\n^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)",
">\n\nDidin't they elect a woman to be the president of Belarus, but Lukashenko ignored it and stayed leader, and the woman, the real president of belarus lives in exile???\ni must admit the limit of my in depth knowledge of Belarus is pretty much limited to that Lukashenko is a dictator, an asshole, an idiot, and a puppet.",
">\n\nYes and early on in war she was vocal to support ukraine",
">\n\nSuch is life in most countries that are pro Russia. Authoritarianism at its finest.",
">\n\nOh yeah, someone is getting cold feet. Fascists unite!"
] |
>
|
[
"“The reason for his custody was not yet known, it added.\nThere was no comment from authorities in Belarus on the detention.”\n…what a great place to live.",
">\n\nCan't say I'm surprised. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has been living in exile since 2020 for the same reason. \nYet it almost looked like the protests were going to be succesful... 😢\nPS: Lukashenko looks like the perfect amalgamation of every elderly dictator between here and the Philippines.",
">\n\n2020-2021 Belarusian protests \n\nThe 2020–2021 Belarusian protests were a series of mass political demonstrations and protests against the Belarusian government and President Alexander Lukashenko. The largest anti-government protests in the history of Belarus, the demonstrations began in the lead-up to and during the 2020 presidential election, in which Lukashenko sought his sixth term in office. In response to the demonstrations, a number of relatively small pro-government rallies were held. The protests intensified nationwide after the official election results were announced on the night of 9 August, in which Lukashenko was declared the winner.\n\n^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)",
">\n\nDidin't they elect a woman to be the president of Belarus, but Lukashenko ignored it and stayed leader, and the woman, the real president of belarus lives in exile???\ni must admit the limit of my in depth knowledge of Belarus is pretty much limited to that Lukashenko is a dictator, an asshole, an idiot, and a puppet.",
">\n\nYes and early on in war she was vocal to support ukraine",
">\n\nSuch is life in most countries that are pro Russia. Authoritarianism at its finest.",
">\n\nOh yeah, someone is getting cold feet. Fascists unite!",
">\n\n\"Hey I've seen this one!\""
] |
Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.
|
[] |
>
I believe this part is somewhat correct.
It's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.
Well... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.
So it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.
It just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how."
] |
>
The worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least.
My local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly."
] |
>
Yes.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?"
] |
>
We done here?
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes."
] |
>
No, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?"
] |
>
I didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state"
] |
>
It should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor."
] |
>
Yes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation."
] |
>
Right? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game."
] |
>
Of course it should, it was originally designed to keep pace with the cost of living until it was changed in the late sixties.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.",
">\n\nRight? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world."
] |
>
This would actually help inflation because inflation that was a result of price gouging would actually increase the minimum wage. This tying the minimum wage to inflation would create a disincentive for companies to raise prices without justification.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.",
">\n\nRight? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world.",
">\n\nOf course it should, it was originally designed to keep pace with the cost of living until it was changed in the late sixties."
] |
>
If it's the "minimum wage", then yes. Because inflation would make the cumulative wages lower value to the basket of goods it's supposed to supply for the buyer.
But if "minimum wage" is just an arbitrary number meant to keep a chunk of the population at a suppressed standard of living, then I guess we can just keep on doing what we're doing.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.",
">\n\nRight? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world.",
">\n\nOf course it should, it was originally designed to keep pace with the cost of living until it was changed in the late sixties.",
">\n\nThis would actually help inflation because inflation that was a result of price gouging would actually increase the minimum wage. This tying the minimum wage to inflation would create a disincentive for companies to raise prices without justification."
] |
>
Of course. How is this even a question?
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.",
">\n\nRight? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world.",
">\n\nOf course it should, it was originally designed to keep pace with the cost of living until it was changed in the late sixties.",
">\n\nThis would actually help inflation because inflation that was a result of price gouging would actually increase the minimum wage. This tying the minimum wage to inflation would create a disincentive for companies to raise prices without justification.",
">\n\nIf it's the \"minimum wage\", then yes. Because inflation would make the cumulative wages lower value to the basket of goods it's supposed to supply for the buyer.\nBut if \"minimum wage\" is just an arbitrary number meant to keep a chunk of the population at a suppressed standard of living, then I guess we can just keep on doing what we're doing."
] |
>
This is a good idea
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.",
">\n\nRight? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world.",
">\n\nOf course it should, it was originally designed to keep pace with the cost of living until it was changed in the late sixties.",
">\n\nThis would actually help inflation because inflation that was a result of price gouging would actually increase the minimum wage. This tying the minimum wage to inflation would create a disincentive for companies to raise prices without justification.",
">\n\nIf it's the \"minimum wage\", then yes. Because inflation would make the cumulative wages lower value to the basket of goods it's supposed to supply for the buyer.\nBut if \"minimum wage\" is just an arbitrary number meant to keep a chunk of the population at a suppressed standard of living, then I guess we can just keep on doing what we're doing.",
">\n\nOf course. How is this even a question?"
] |
>
No. Please keep paying me in shit.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.",
">\n\nRight? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world.",
">\n\nOf course it should, it was originally designed to keep pace with the cost of living until it was changed in the late sixties.",
">\n\nThis would actually help inflation because inflation that was a result of price gouging would actually increase the minimum wage. This tying the minimum wage to inflation would create a disincentive for companies to raise prices without justification.",
">\n\nIf it's the \"minimum wage\", then yes. Because inflation would make the cumulative wages lower value to the basket of goods it's supposed to supply for the buyer.\nBut if \"minimum wage\" is just an arbitrary number meant to keep a chunk of the population at a suppressed standard of living, then I guess we can just keep on doing what we're doing.",
">\n\nOf course. How is this even a question?",
">\n\nThis is a good idea"
] |
>
Yes. Or at least tie it to the pay of Congress. When they get a raise, MW goes up by the same %.
|
[
"Funny how the people already making well above minimum wage never talk as if their higher pay effects inflation it's always the minimum wagers who get the flack like they're the ones pushing inflation some how.",
">\n\nI believe this part is somewhat correct.\nIt's the flipside of the argument that the best way to handle tax cuts is to give it to the poor rather than the rich. Why? The rich often don't change anything or do anything with the increased net income due to the reduction of tax. It just ends up as extra savings. But the poor? They tend to spend it much more quickly, consistently and comprehensively. This puts the money into the system more quickly and more powerfully since it multiplies more.\nWell... what is that? That's expansionary pressure. It's often the goal of tax cuts. That's more or less tied to inflation.\nSo it does make sense (at least at first glance) to consider increasing minimum wage as of greater consequence to inflation than increasing salaries of upper and middle class folk.\nIt just seems backwards however. Yes, there are complicated intertwining issues here. But we ought to be increasing minimum wage tied to something like inflation or cost of living or given enough time the minimum wage becomes useless. So it's because of inflation that we ought to raise the minimum wage regularly.",
">\n\nThe worst stimulus ever was the mass fraud and forgiveness of the PPP program. A massive giveaway to the people who need it least. \nMy local Silicon Valley Porsche dealer literally has no cars to sell. They were all purchased right about the time that PPP loans were written off the books. Is there a connection?",
">\n\nYes.",
">\n\nWe done here?",
">\n\nNo, it should also be adjusted for cost of living in the area of work. A minimum wage in downtown LA/NYC/SF should not be the same as in rural -pick-your-red-state",
">\n\nI didn't say solely tied to inflation, but it should be a factor.",
">\n\nIt should be tied to corporate profits. The increase would be an order of magnitude higher than pinning it to inflation.",
">\n\nYes. Many people would say businesses would leave but heres the neat part. We’re the biggest market in the world. We can just deny you access to our market if you don’t play our game.",
">\n\nRight? They act like businesses suddenly don't need the profits from the 3rd largest country by population in the world.",
">\n\nOf course it should, it was originally designed to keep pace with the cost of living until it was changed in the late sixties.",
">\n\nThis would actually help inflation because inflation that was a result of price gouging would actually increase the minimum wage. This tying the minimum wage to inflation would create a disincentive for companies to raise prices without justification.",
">\n\nIf it's the \"minimum wage\", then yes. Because inflation would make the cumulative wages lower value to the basket of goods it's supposed to supply for the buyer.\nBut if \"minimum wage\" is just an arbitrary number meant to keep a chunk of the population at a suppressed standard of living, then I guess we can just keep on doing what we're doing.",
">\n\nOf course. How is this even a question?",
">\n\nThis is a good idea",
">\n\nNo. Please keep paying me in shit."
] |
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