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Under No Circumstances Should You Not Solve A Real Problem - tommy_mcclung http://www.thefailingpoint.com/2009/08/buildingproduct/not-solve-a-real-problem/ ====== bravura Under no circumstances should you use a double negative for emphasis. It has the opposite effect. ------ edw519 Maybe I have fortunate circumstances, but I have never had this problem. Why? I have customers. And they have desires. Lots of them. It's true, they may not articulate their desires real well and they may never envision "the next big thing", but when you start hearing the same things over and over again, it's a pretty good bet you're solving a real problem. ------ duncanj Why do most of the articles in the series start with "...Not"?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: SSL Timer – Certificate expiry countdown timer - steve_taylor https://ssltimer.com ====== steve_taylor I created this little website because I tend to leave things to the last minute, such as renewing an old website's certificate. There's nothing like a countdown timer to create a sense of urgency. I hope you find it useful. ------ billpg It would be good if you could list several domains and show the countdown for whichever one is the next due to expire. Once that one gets renewed, shuffle the next one due into the countdown. Or use lets-encrypt and automate renewals. ~~~ steve_taylor Thanks for the suggestion regarding multiple domains. People should definitely use Let’s Encrypt. I certainly do where I can (e.g. ssltimer.com).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: What to look for in a NON-technical cofounder - sgallant There is a lot of talk on HN about what to look for in a technical cofounder but I'm wondering what we should look for in a non-technical cofounder. Is there even a need for this person in a small startup? I recall reading that 37 signals doesn't hire anyone who doesn't have a strong technical skill set; no one whose only role is to manage others.<p>What should a non-technical cofounder bring to the table? ====== pbhjpbhj You've submitted this twice so I flagged this version.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
TikTok being investigated in the U.K. for handling of children’s data and safety - Freako_Sarcasio https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/02/tiktok-is-being-investigated-in-the-u-k-for-how-it-handles-childrens-data-and-safety/ ====== lm28469 Every time I read "tiktok" I have flashbacks from one of paymoneywubby's video [0]. This platform is at the very least extremely disturbing. It's mild but I'd tag it as NSFW. [0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmphkNDosg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmphkNDosg) ~~~ sus_007 That was a strange mixture of cringe and funny. Thanks ? ------ GeneticGenesis TikTok is a strange one - It has some great content, but if you scroll through the home feed, you still stumble on pictures of kids dancing and lipsyncing in... inappropriate ways. I think this is a pretty limiting barrier to entry for a lot of users. ~~~ derefr How do you suggest they get rid of those (without an untenably-large moderation staff)? ~~~ cycrutchfield They do already have an extremely large moderation staff. Most likely every piece of content that has a large number of views has been moderated already. If it’s visible to you, that means they are OK with that content being available. ------ mashpotato Tiktok has been on a crusade of late and removed millions of videos which has severely deteriorated the user experience. ------ mtrovo Honest question is there really a correct way to deal with it? When you have a service that that 40% of traffic is coming from underage how would you keep the weirdos out? After what happened YouTube I’m glad my kids still need some years before using social media, I hope these problems are solved by them. ~~~ microcolonel Idunno TikTok seems fun. I grew up looking at muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch worse (only being 22 now), and I can tell you that the wacky and horrible things I've seen on the internet are 0% of my problems as an adult. If anything, exposure to terrorist beheadings, creepy pedos, ironic (and less ironic) naziposting, and the rest have made me a more resilient person, with no physical risk. Results may vary, but I'm not sure I would sequester the worst of the internet from kids older than 12 (or the individual kid's mental equivalent), personally. ~~~ NeedMoreTea Alternative take: you were going to grow up to be resilient, or believing yourself to be regardless. Those who weren't going to may be affected more deeply, or for much longer. ------ ubercow13 Is this issue just with certain regions (US in particular)? I've watched people using TikTok in Asia and have never seen anything questionable ------ ansible I've been suspicious of TikTok since I've heard of it. So you're making some social media / video sharing app... not that the world needs another one, but fine, whatever. Why on earth do you need to spend money on advertising? I've seen multiple ads on YouTube. I know I'm not the target audience, so that had to be expensive. If you've got funny content, then it'll get posted around, and you'll attract viewers to your site and app. Spending millions on advertising seems weird and creepy to me. But maybe it is just that I'm old. ~~~ Smithalicious I'm sorry, what? What's supposed to be strange about this? They have a product, why would it be "creepy" that they advertise it?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Please build an Apilatform - danw http://jatspeak.com/blog/?p=38 ====== diabloernest Well, the current structure of web goes like as follows :- 1\. You have some structured data. 2\. You convert it to structured data to unstructured data, and render it on the browser in form of xml 3\. Then search engines crawl your pages, and work night and day to build heuristics to convert this unstructured peice again to structured data. which is never optimal. Can't this be completely avoided? Isn;t it quite unintelligent to go through this loop?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Simon Norton, mathematical prodigy, subject of bio ‘The Genius in my Basement’ - ColinWright https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2019/02/15/simon-norton-mathematical-prodigy-became-subject-biography-genius/ ====== drilldrive Any non-paywall source? ~~~ melling Here’s an old article about the book: [https://www.npr.org/2012/02/26/147267508/meet-the- mathematic...](https://www.npr.org/2012/02/26/147267508/meet-the-mathematical- genius-in-my-basement) [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/aug/24/genius-in- my-b...](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/aug/24/genius-in-my-basement- review) Simon died on Feb 14th. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_P._Norton](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_P._Norton)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
World first for strange molecule - habs http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8013343.stm ====== tdavis I can't decide what is more amazing: that we can create molecules, that we can _see_ them in their 18 micro-second life, or that some guy predicted this particular one in 1934. Maybe it's just me, but I'm still impressed by the crazy crap we as human beings are capable of.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why Every Innovator is in the Toy Business - pchristensen http://blog.inc.com/nolan-bushnell/2009/06/why_every_innovator_is_in_the.html ====== jamesk2 Does this mean that google was not an innovator?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Twitch officially acquired by Amazon - munchor http://www.twitch.tv/p/thankyou ====== ihuman While I am happy for the Twitch employees on the news of acquisition, I fear this is going to hurt the user base more than it will help it. With the recent changes to VODs and music issues, people are already starting to leave. This news could push more people to leave. We've already seen services change after being acquired by a large corporation (YouTube is an often-cited example). The best case scenario is that the extra money helps to make the service better, but history has shown that that is not always the case. ~~~ nobodyshere At least there won't be any google plus integration. ~~~ ihuman I don't think they would do it, but they could somehow integrate Amazon accounts. I don't think that would change the platform as much as G+ accounts did to YouTube, though. ------ eva1984 At least for acquiring companies, Amazon has better reputation in keeping them as it is, instead of tearing apart and integrating into something else. Twitch is a great service though~Good luck! ~~~ WorldWideWayne Are you talking about Google? I'm glad that it was Amazon instead of Google too, for the same reason. ------ sgrove What an amazing team, and an amazing outcome. Who would have thought there was such potential in viewing gaming - and of those, how many teams would actually be able to pull it off? ------ mhartl Congrats to the Twitch/Justin.tv crew! ------ Artemis2 I'm happy that it's Amazon that got Twitch and not Google. Google is a great company, but they already have a huge monopoly on video streaming.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The US military wants super-soldiers to control drones with their minds - sahin-boydas https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614495/us-military-super-soldiers-control-drones-brain-computer-interfaces/ ====== chmaynard Next: The US Military wants super-drones to control super-soldiers that control drones with their minds.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Deep Web Explained by Keanu Reeves - hendi_ https://vimeo.com/124777509 ====== s986s I was hoping for something longer but was not dissappointed.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Lyp – a package manager for Lilyond - ciconia https://github.com/noteflakes/lyp ====== fiatjaf Lilypond is a language used to render sheet music?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Clearest sign yet of dark matter detected - dmoney http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18303-clearest-sign-yet-of-dark-matter-detected.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=space ====== waterlesscloud This experiment seems fundamentally flawed to me. If they see things they can't explain in other ways, it could be dark matter.Or it could just be things they can't explain in other ways. I must be missing something. ------ pwmanagerdied In case anyone else is confused, this is the same story we saw a little while ago; nothing new has happened.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How to secure an Ubuntu Apache web server - zacharytamas http://nwlinux.com/how-to-secure-an-ubuntu-apache-web-server/ ====== mino Most of these tips are really wrong: * Why using an embedded board for firewall? I can see using an hw firewall, but only in very limited corner cases (i.e. when it does inspection in ASIC) * what has ssh to do with apache? * having 10 (wow! Look at me!) desktops and keeping one for 5 tail windows is the perfect recipe to NOT notice anomalies. * ... Total rubbish IMHO. ~~~ munin it's ironic that fail2ban will probably not ban anyone if you are running ssh on a non-standard port it's also nice to be able to block an entire country like china. what if you have customers in china..? ------ LoneWolf There are my thoughts: Fail2Ban - "It updates firewall rules to reject the IP address." stopped reading here, NOTHING changes my firewall rules, I do. Non standard ports - I run on my server sshd on port 22, never had a single problem, yes sometimes I get some attempts, denyhosts helps but it is a problem for those days you type your own password wrong too many times. Also totally unrelated to apache. Hardware firewall - Not knowing much about this I can't say much either, but my bet is that for a simple server it is overkill. Virtual hosts - Useless thing in my opinion. PhpMyAdmin - Don't use it. Updates - I'm ok with this one, but you can't just update somethimes things break. Check logs - Not a bad idea at all but not like that, get something to look for suspicious patterns or you will go insane. .htaccess - Block addresses? Seriously? With htaccess? I would go with firewall rules, and a complete country? Don't like that idea. ~~~ brador Both you and Kijin above have strongly suggested not using PhpMyAdmin. Are there better alternatives for managing my mysql databases? ~~~ ludwigvan I use the command line too, but MySQL Workbench using SSH tunnelling might be a good solution: [http://dev.mysql.com/doc/workbench/en/wb-manage-db- connectio...](http://dev.mysql.com/doc/workbench/en/wb-manage-db-connections- ssh.html) ------ rawrly This article's title should have been "8 things the author did to secure their specific Ubuntu server." It's strange that it the link got so many votes. While the article has a few points about security, it's nowhere sufficient enough to be considered acceptable reading material for improving your site or server's security. (case in point: complete lack of anything on their list addressing integrity of your files/content, also nothing about backups) It would be a shame if anyone from HN took the approach the author describes in the above article and felt any sense of increased security on their site or about to be launched web app (there is a whole heck of a lot more out there than "install a few things, make a few tweaks, look what i did") ------ seancron Do it now! Modify /etc/ssh/ssh_config. Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't it be: Do it now! Modify /etc/ssh/sshd_config. ~~~ darklajid You're right, of course. Ignoring my opinion of _not_ using a non-standard port, I would update both of the files you listed. One on the server, to switch to the new port. And one on the client, to modify (or create) a configuration section that (among previous options) now lists a non-default port. Who in his right mind would want to give the port manually on ever connection attempt? :) ~~~ ludwigvan Another way (for the client after setting the server up): Create the file ~/.ssh/config, then fill it like this: Host mymachineip Port 443 ------ zobzu "Invest in a good hardware firewall." <= this one always makes me laugth even more so when it lists linux based firewalls afterwards "anyways" (not that ipfilter is any bad or less secure than anything else) Love the "watch the log real time" too :-) ------ xaphod I hate the praise that fail2ban gets. It is useful, but it is not securing anything really, unless maybe you run a public ssh box that has other users who have bad passwords. It will keep the logs cleaner though. A better way to secure SSH on a web server would be to restrict access by firewall and/or disallow password logins. ~~~ orthecreedence Agreed, password SSH logins belong nowhere on a box that needs to be secured. Shared key authentication (with a passworded private key) is a lot more secure. ------ fsniper This is mostly useless advice. Some are simpletons of a hardening Linux. But come on, what's to have a hardware firewall instead of netfilter? Even it does not mention about ids/ips configurations. ------ kijin The article raises some common-sense good points, but as others have noted, a lot of it is crappy advice. > When a user points their computer towards your server, they generally use > your ip address. If they have malicious intentions, they will go fishing for > your phpmyadmin, mail, or other vulnerable services. A malicious person can just as easily go fishing for vulnerable web-accessible pages using your domain name. example.com/phpmyadmin is no more secure than 12.34.56.78/phpmyadmin. > 5\. Block access to phpmyadmin Nope, just don't install it in the first place. Especially if you're going to access it remotely over plain HTTP. If you really absolutely want to use phpmyadmin, put it in its own virtual host that is only accessible from localhost. Then tunnel into your server to access it. > 8\. Use .htaccess ... to block a range of IP addresses Using .htaccess to block IPs? Whoa, wrong tool for the job. You might have no other choice if you're on a shared server, but there are much better IP blocking solutions if you're setting up your own Linux server. ------ nwlinux Thanks for the corrections and opinions on the article. For someone just getting into Ubuntu and Linux, these are the basics from my perspective. While best practices are always disputed in I.T., I appreciate the continued discussion. ------ chrishenn Is there any logic to blocking China or a specific country? Is that where most malicious attacks come from? ~~~ orthecreedence If you run a sever with port 22 open, you'll notice about 10 people an hour trying to log in via SSH. These are mostly bots from China trying quick ways to get into your server. The solution is to change SSH from port 22 to something above 10000...blocking China is just stupid (proxy, anyone?) ------ ljfoy pfSense is FreeBSD. ------ baghali Who voted for such link? ------ billpatrianakos As someone who is bootstrapping a web app all alone I really appreciated this. I know a few people are getting hung up on some "wrong" points but after looking into it I have to say that obviously one shouldn't just implement these measures exactly as written. Everyone's mileage will vary. The point is to consider these options and implement them in a smart way. That means keeping SSH on 22 if using fail2ban. Sure, SSH and Apache don't have much to do with each other but any thinking person gets the point: you're running a web server on apache and access it over ssh all the time, therefore make sure to secure that connection regardless of your chosen web server software. I dont get all the negativity. Those are some common sense things that can be easily overlooked. I thinking blocking entire countries may not be smart for business but you never know who might want that. I'd also add disabling the root user, installing a software firewall like ufw, and invest in an SSL cert (they're not that expensive compared to the losses you could incur should some ass decide to attack your server). Thanks for this. Merry Christmas. ~~~ zacharytamas Exactly. When I came across this earlier I took them with a grain of salt. They probably shouldn't be implemented exactly as written because as you said your mileage will vary. Everyone's stack is a little bit different and have their own sets of weaknesses and considerations. ------ Ziomislaw ugh, securing ubuntu is like using a fishnet to carry water. why just not use a distro that was meant to be used on the server, and not userfriendly desktop with server label glued as an afterthought?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What papers should everyone read? - Theoretical Computer Science - ColinWright http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/1168/what-papers-should-everyone-read ====== calculon Anything written by Leslie Lamport is worth the effort. Time, Clocks and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System (seminal paper which won various awards): [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/lamport/pubs/p...](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/lamport/pubs/pubs.html#time-clocks) That link actually takes you to a complete list of Lamport's works. ~~~ jpitz I wish I could upvote twice. Lamport's writing is _very_ accessible ( at least to this college dropout ) and I really enjoyed reading Time, Clocks and the Ordering of Events. Paxos Made Simple is another favorite: [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/lamport/pubs/p...](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/lamport/pubs/pubs.html#paxos-simple). ------ Jun8 This is a great list. I would add: * The stable marriage problem (D. Gale and L. S. Shapley: "College Admissions and the Stability of Marriage", American Mathematical Monthly 69, 9-14, 1962.), <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem> * Knuth's Dancing Links algorithm [http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/papers/dancing-color...](http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/papers/dancing-color.ps.gz) ------ iqster "A tutorial on Hidden Markov Models and selected applications in speech recognition" (by Lawrence Rabiner) - blew me away. link: [http://www.ece.ucsb.edu/Faculty/Rabiner/ece259/Reprints/tuto...](http://www.ece.ucsb.edu/Faculty/Rabiner/ece259/Reprints/tutorial%20on%20hmm%20and%20applications.pdf) I'll also add "Design and Implementation of the Sun Network Filesystem" (by Sandberg et al.) - fantastic read. ------ calculon Brewer's CAP Theorem The first link is the paper which constituted the proof of the theorem, the other two provide more context and background. [http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.20....](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.20.1495&rep=rep1&type=pdf) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem> [http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap- theor...](http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap-theorem) ------ shareme There is one set of papers that applies to multi-areas...information Theory Paper and Journal article list is here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory> Its one of the most important theories of the modern science age of the 19th/20th century ~~~ jey Shannon's original paper is still a surprisingly good read: [http://cm.bell- labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pd...](http://cm.bell- labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf) ~~~ _delirium Seconded; imo this paper is a pretty good introduction to the basic concepts and motivations of information theory even today. Impressive for a 63-year-old paper. ~~~ evgen If you want a reminder of what a stud Shannon was, remember that his masters thesis (A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits) proved that you could use boolean algebra and boolean arithmetic to analyze the circuits and relays used in the telephone networks at the time. It then went one step further and proved that the inverse was also true, you could use relays and switches to perform boolean logic operations -- this was the key insight that made digital electronics possible. Not too bad for work that did not even get him a Ph.D. :) ------ ignifero Something on quantum computation like, Shor's algorithm: <http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0010034> ~~~ ColinWright That's already there. Did you read the linked item? ~~~ ignifero Ouch. Really sorry about that. Wish i could delete it. I would also add any paper by David Deutsch on quantum communication like this: <http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/quant-ph/9906007v2>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Shapeways Receives the First HP Multi Jet Fusion 3D Printer - microtherion http://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/25462-shapeways-receives-the-first-hp-multi-jet-fusion-3d-printer.html ====== sfwwolvw Happy to print there!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A response to “An experienced JavaScript dev’s account of learning React” - nachtigall https://medium.com/@dan_abramov/hey-thanks-for-feedback-bf9502689ca4 ====== nevir A lot of Abramov's responses do refute the original points, but they also betray how much cognitive overhead is required to play in React's ecosystem. The guy used Redux, I'm sure, because he knew he needed to manage state somehow - and the articles he found probably pointed him there (rather than vanilla component state) He knew he wanted some sort of routing system, found react router, was got a bit scared by how quickly it has been moving lately - and also, likely, how many existing articles about it are somewhat outdated Etc ~~~ philpee2 I've never understood the whole "Don't use Redux until you need it" idea. If you're building anything larger than a toy app, component state isn't gonna cut it, so you're better off structuring your app with Redux or MobX or something from the start than rewriting stuff to include it later. ~~~ acemarke There's a difference between "don't try to learn Redux until you understand React", and "don't use Redux right away when you start building an app". For most people, trying to learn to "think in React" is a pretty big jump, especially if they're coming from an imperative, jQuery-style background. Throwing in Redux's concepts at the same time is usually too much for most people, especially if they're relatively inexperienced programmers. So, the standard advice from both the React and Redux teams is to focus on learning React first. Once you have a good understanding of how React works, you will better appreciate why a state management library like Redux can be useful, and you can learn about other tools later. On the other hand, if you are familiar with Redux, it does make a lot of sense to set it up from the beginning. I've been writing a tutorial series called "Practical Redux" ( [http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/series/practical- redux/](http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/series/practical-redux/) ) , which is intended to demonstrate a variety of useful React and Redux techniques in the context of a sample app. In that series, I create a new project using Create- React-App, and then immediately add Redux into it as a baseline. Overall, what Dan is trying to push back against is the perception that you _must_ use Redux with React, or that you _must_ learn them both at the same time. Neither is true. ~~~ vbezhenar Honestly many developers don't have freedom to experiment with new things on their own. I got web project, I'm thinking, well, it's a good time to try out React, I've heard it's cool. I'm convincing my manager, if necessary and I'm starting to build production project without any prior React or Redux or whatever knowledge. I'm not going to do it step by step, no. I'm grabbing everything and trying to bundle it all together. I know, that my app will need state, so I'm using Redux. I know, that my app will need routing, so I'm using router. And my experience is similar to author's, I had a lot of troubles to even get build setup working. I guess, it's more about javascript development tools, not specifically about React, but point stands still. And if I'm understanding, that I just got buried under pile of things, I'll throw it out, rewrite everything on Angular I know and love and forget about it for a few years, until it matures and I could try it again, hopefully with less troubles. If you've got a lot of free time and want to tinker a lot, that's a good advice. Pick simple project, make it with simplest setup, introduce additional dependencies, rewrite the project, and so on. But not everyone wants to learn without being paid for it. ~~~ davidjnelson I'd recommend pitching it to your manager as a one week spike, and if that goes well do a presentation on it and sell technical leadership on it from what you learned. Then you can add proper tooling. Make a few trade offs to save time as needed. That strategy worked for me. ------ jannotti Impressive job replying to what seems like a hatchet job, without losing his cool. But my favorite part: The next React will allow returning an array of components without a div wrapper. Small change, but it annoyed me to no end that it wasn't already possible. ~~~ STRML It will also allow returning raw strings (TextNodes), which will allow for some very light i18n libraries. ~~~ samtho IMO, this really shows the maturity of React as a project and gives me a lot of confidence that working on React apps wont be in vein after another few years. They are able to see pain points and provide solutions to solve them without sacrificing backwards compatibility. ------ AustinG08 I didn't see the original article, but he was tossed a softball. The issues quoted in his response are so cliché. React is great, and judging by the growing ecosystem, many people agree. If you don't like it because it requires you to learn a workflow you are unfamiliar with, don't use it. ~~~ eganist > If you don't like it because it requires you to learn a workflow you are > unfamiliar with, don't use it. Unrelated to the technical side (which I haven't investigated in much depth yet as a third party to this discussion), I don't like it because of the patent license, which AFAICR is a valid concern for a non-trivial number of large firms. [https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS](https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS) ~~~ acemarke You might want to look at the official Facebook FAQ regarding that PATENTS clause ( [https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556](https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556) ), as well as this legal analysis: [http://lu.is/blog/2016/10/31/reacts- license-necessary-and-op...](http://lu.is/blog/2016/10/31/reacts-license- necessary-and-open/) . I also have links to further discussion on the PATENTS clause in my React links list: [https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux- links/blob/master...](https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux- links/blob/master/pros-cons-discussion.md#reacts-patents-license) . ~~~ yladiz The problem with the patents clause is that it's too broad wrt patents. If you have a valid patent that Facebook is infringing upon, no matter if it relates to React, Facebook revokes your right to use React. That's their prerogative, but it is generally too broad to allow some companies to actually use the library. ~~~ davidjnelson That would be awful. Has this ever been used by Facebook, where a company had to strip react out? ~~~ spicyj No. ~~~ davidjnelson Cool, thanks for the info! ------ julianmarq I'm having trouble understanding what this accomplished, other than making the react (or I guess redux in this case) team look petty. I agreed with the original post and this reply didn't sway me. I see in this thread that people who had already disagreed with the original post agreed with this, as expected. Seriously, nobody not called Linus Torvalds should be writing direct replies to criticism of their technology in blog posts (and he's the only exception because reading his replies is very entertaining). Yes, people like their technology and like how it is, it makes sense for _them_ but, that's not universal; so addressing criticism (even as an attempt of countering the criticism) only legitimizes it. If one doesn't want to acknowledge that one's technology is not for everyone... one is better off _not acknowledging it_ , in any way; doing otherwise puts that shortsightedness in evidence. ~~~ danabramov Thanks for feedback, I just edited to include the reason I wrote this: _> Your post includes a lot of misconceptions commonly held in the React community, so I wanted to take a moment to clarify them for everyone else who has the same concerns._ I didn't reply to many similar posts before, but I felt like this is a good opportunity to jump in and provide some clarifications because there are some factual misconceptions in the post. When unaddressed, these tend to keep spreading and get a life of their own. Also, we _do_ take this feedback to the heart. In fact we spent time developing Create React App precisely thanks to feedback like this. _> If one doesn't want to acknowledge that one's technology is not for everyone._ We totally acknowledge React is not for everyone! I touched on this in the last paragraph, but it wasn’t the focus of my article. I do try to stress it when comparing React to other libraries in general, but this seemed like a React-specific post. ~~~ dentemple Thank you for your efforts! As a React developer, I also raised an eyebrow at the misconceptions given in the original article. (The worst, IMO, was definitely the part regarding Create React App and the overall toolchain). I appreciate your take on the article and felt that you did a good job focusing on these issues, whereas someone like myself would've been a bit more biting in my response. ------ hising Maybe I read this with the wrong glasses, but I find some of the answers a bit high-horse? "How many components do you have" etc. ~~~ spicyj I'm on the React team and momentarily read this the same way you did. It probably could have been clearer, but I think I don't think number of components here is meant to be an accomplishment. Rather, it just means that we've done the work of testing compatibility already on a gigantic codebase so there's a good chance that most other apps will work out of the box. ~~~ hising My point being, you are doing a great job, if a person is frustrated over some tech and writes a blog post or whatever about it, maybe you should just leave it with that? Coming out defending design decisions etc just leaves a foul taste. React is awesome, but maybe it is not for everyone? ~~~ acemarke It's definitely not for everyone, but it would be nice for people to make that decision based on accurate information. There is unfortunately a lot of FUD that has been spread around React in general, the React ecosystem, and the upcoming React Fiber rewrite. It's a combination of longstanding complaints like "HTML in my JS? EWW!", concerns about build tools like Babel and Webpack, badly written articles and headlines like the recent TechCrunch post that claimed "React Fiber is a complete change that Facebook has never talked about", and of course lots of arguments in comment sections. If someone has taken time to evaluate React and determined that it's not for them, that's totally fine. But, when poor articles get upvoted and spread widely, it doesn't help anyone. ------ finchisko Hat off for Dan, I wouldn't have that patience to explain and basically refute every claim from the former post. No framework/lib is perfect (for every job), that is the reason, we have so many. Critique is fine and necessary, but you should have quite a lot experience with the subject, or you might look "rookish" (as in this case). Sorry, but that guy did a really poor job criticizing react. ------ samtho > Create React App is a thin layer on top of Webpack and Babel. It doesn’t > generate the project code for you, but it configures those tools in the > recommended way. TIL. I've been manually setting up my own configs for years now, and never touched this tool because I thought it was literally creating a sample/boilerplate app for you much like the express.js cli generator. ~~~ acemarke Yeah, CRA really isn't a "boilerplate". It's a prepackaged build system that can be upgraded. It doesn't come with dozens of app-level dependencies already installed and custom-configured, like most boilerplates do. Dan Abramov commented a while back on how CRA differs from boilerplates: [https://www.reddit.com/r/reactjs/comments/5gt2c4/you_dont_ne...](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactjs/comments/5gt2c4/you_dont_need_a_boilerplate/) . Also, I commented with some additional thoughts on why CRA is a better choice than "boilerplates" for someone who's trying to learn: [https://www.reddit.com/r/reactjs/comments/5oem3g/recommended...](https://www.reddit.com/r/reactjs/comments/5oem3g/recommended_reactredux_starter_kits/) . Overall, CRA serves three primary purposes: it allows React learners to set up an environment without having to learn Webpack and Babel first; it allows experienced React devs to spin up a project without having to do all the configuration work (or copy and paste it from somewhere); and it also provides a common starting point for instructions and tutorials. For example, my recent blog post on using the Cesium.js 3D globe library with Webpack and React ( [http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2017/03/declarative- earth-p...](http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2017/03/declarative-earth-p...)) was able to start by just saying "Create a CRA project, eject, and modify these two config values". ------ NoGravitas Off-topic, but can anyone explain why the comment system on Medium is so terrible? It always takes at least two clicks (and corresponding slow loads) to read a comment that you want to read. ------ jaequery "you must use className instead of class to define the DOM css classes" \- op "You are completely right it’s annoying. It’s one of those early design decisions to align better with the DOM APIs that has proved to be confusing. We might change this in the future." \- dan i appreciate dan's honesty here. it was little things like this made the framework look a bit immature and rushed but glad to know these are in the horizon to be improved on. ------ blurrywh OT: When I tried Inferno as a drop-in replacement for React few months ago everything kept working fine. Inferno's author was hired by Facebook and some of his work might have been reused. Inferno was insanely fast and for me super compatible though missing some of the API. I like Dan's answer and it shows that many are not really familiar with React and its trivial concept (like me before I tried). React is good and manageable even after a rewrite because it has a tiny API (compared to other frameworks/libs in this space). ------ whitefish Those who think React + ReactRouter + Redux is too complex -- you're right. But there is an easier way to use React: MVC. React is the V in MVC. [https://github.com/Rajeev-K/mvc-router](https://github.com/Rajeev-K/mvc- router) Note that using MVC does not imply 2-way binding! ~~~ hising I don't understand Redux, I have almost 20 years of coding (I probably suck at it though). I once asked a developer at an interview if he could explain the redux stuff he had used in an assignment. He couldn't and I really tried to understand all the boilerplate and inner designs of the library, but I found it really hard to get into. Mobx though, 2 minutes and you get it AND you get more efficient in building complex UI:s. ~~~ ashark It's two event/message dispatchers slapped together. One for "reducers" that take an event/message and apply it to state, one that automagically applies the resulting state-change event to do stuff to your views. You mostly don't need to worry about the second one. As far as I can tell, that's it. For bad reasons they've decided to stick with the terrible "action" name for their events/messages, which has made the whole thing super confusing (turning "actionCreator" into "eventCreator" immediately makes things much clearer, for instance). There's also a ton of convention/process taught on top of it for some reason that's IMO not that great, and makes it really hard to see what's actually part of Redux and what's cruft on top of it that you can skip/modify. Redux- as-typically-presented is mostly _you_ doing stuff to follow a (kinda painful) pattern, not the Redux library helping you do stuff. [EDIT] I'd add that the communication pattern of the docs and various attempts to help people understand Redux seems to largely be "oh, you didn't get it? Let me say the same thing again but louder". Which is why there's SO MUCH documentation and chatter for something fairly simple, I think. Which just compounds the problem. ~~~ acemarke A lot of the naming of stuff goes back to Redux's Flux heritage. The Flux architecture labeled those objects as "actions", so Redux (since it was intended as a "Flux implementation") kept that naming. You are right that the majority of usage is really at the user level, than the library level. I'm actually working on a blog post that will try to clarify and discuss what actual technical limitations Redux requires of you, vs how you are _encouraged_ to use Redux, vs how it's _possible_ to use Redux. Been busy with other stuff, but hoping to make progress on that post this week. If you're interested, keep an eye on my blog at [http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com](http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com) . If you have concerns with the docs, I'd appreciate any specific suggestions or ideas you might have for improving them. Docs issues and PRs are absolutely welcome, from you or anyone else who wants to help improve them. Finally, I recently opened up an issue to discuss possible future improvements and "ease-of-use" layers that could be built on top of the Redux core: [https://github.com/reactjs/redux/issues/2295](https://github.com/reactjs/redux/issues/2295) . Would be happy for any feedback you could offer. (edit: just noted I replied to you a couple different times in this thread, and repeated myself a bit. Offer of discussion absolutely still stands :) ) ------ _greim_ > React 16 (work in progress) is a rewrite, but it has the same public API, > and works with more than 30,000 (!) components at Facebook, so it will most > likely work with your code too This is uninformative without more context. Is he saying Facebook only had 30K components, and all of them worked with the new React? Or does FB have, say, 60K components and only 30K worked seamlessly on the upgrade? ~~~ spicyj 30k+ is the number of total components we have. Almost all of them worked without changes; most of the dozen or so components that needed changes were relying on unsupported, undocumented behaviors. About 99.9% of our components (literally) worked out of the box. ~~~ danabramov Thanks for writing this clarification. Edited the post to include it. ------ yladiz Am I wrong to feel that this response is written a bit flippantly? Of course, it's his personal blog, but considering he's writing as a member of the React team (and seemingly writing on their behalf as he includes the word "we" in the second sentence) it really feels a bit unpolished and disrespectful. The use of emojis is really strange, and reading phrases like, "How many components do you have," and quoting "skeptical" and "doing your job," reads defensively and sarcastically, not something I want to see in a public post from a React dev member. ~~~ danabramov Thanks for feedback. I agree I got too defensive, so I edited the post to be less flippant. (Didn’t expect it to jump to HN in an hour.) I do use emojis all the time in personal communication but I guess it doesn't read very well so I removed them. The question about components wasn’t meant to be an insult but I can understand how one could see it that way, so I removed it. Sorry! ~~~ throwawaymaroon A bigger concern for me is the grating cheerfulness in what is a very critical article. Don't pretend you're not fighting fire with fire with this article. You're mad and you're showing it. When you say stuff like... >>To sum up, I love that you brought up these concerns in an article. I don't believe you! Disingenuous. (You should also think about whether or not the Riot.js author is worth responding to. Just because he's a framework author doesn't mean that framework has ever been held in high regard.) ~~~ danabramov My motivation was to address common misconceptions around React ecosystem. I'm genuinely happy people bring them up (since that's how we learn about the issues). To me, reading posts filled with frustration serves as a motivation to improve things. I didn't reply to "fight with fire": I see these kinds of posts every week or two. But I replied this time because I think it was also important to separate real issues from the factual inaccuracies (that get a life of their own once somebody writes an article). Some bitterness did come through, and I removed it. But I'm not lying when I tell you I'm happy people are sharing their concerns with React. It's all for the best. :-) ------ andrethegiant If anyone isn't aware, you can use babel-plugin-react-html-attrs[1] to address the class/className issue addressed in the author's last point. [1] [https://github.com/insin/babel-plugin-react-html- attrs](https://github.com/insin/babel-plugin-react-html-attrs) ------ ed_balls What React is missing is a set of idioms and patterns. When you inherit Angular or Django project it's quite easy to understand it and be productive if someone follows the philosophy. Create-React-App is a great step, but what next? How to handle AJAX and state if I have a simple app and don't really need Redux. How to structure it so it would be easy to add it. ~~~ acemarke There _are_ many patterns that exist already, and have been widely discussed in the React world (such as "Higher Order Components" for code reuse). You may be interested in several of the sections in my React/Redux links list at [https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux- links](https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux-links) . In particular, check out the "React Architecture", "React Component Patterns", "React State Management", "React and AJAX", "Redux Architecture", and "Project Structure" sections. To pick out a few specific links related to your questions: \- [http://reactpatterns.com/](http://reactpatterns.com/) \- [https://github.com/vasanthk/react-bits](https://github.com/vasanthk/react- bits) \- [https://medium.com/@dan_abramov/smart-and-dumb- components-7c...](https://medium.com/@dan_abramov/smart-and-dumb- components-7ca2f9a7c7d0) \- [https://daveceddia.com/ajax-requests-in- react/](https://daveceddia.com/ajax-requests-in-react/) \- [https://daveceddia.com/visual-guide-to-state-in- react/](https://daveceddia.com/visual-guide-to-state-in-react/) \- [https://hackernoon.com/redux-step-by-step-a-simple-and- robus...](https://hackernoon.com/redux-step-by-step-a-simple-and-robust- workflow-for-real-life-apps-1fdf7df46092) ~~~ ed_balls Thanks for that. Really helpful. Is there a great mid-size open-source project that was created with Create React App? Any input on UI frameworks? I'm currently using React-Bootstrap, but I'm thinking about using Material-UI. ~~~ acemarke Mmm... not sure about apps specifically built with CRA. I do have a list of a few selected interesting-looking apps built with Redux (and React) in my Redux ecosystem catalog [0] . Haven't updated that section in a while, though, and it's definitely not comprehensive, but there's a useful variety of apps to look at. I personally am using Semantic-UI-React [1] in a work project, as well as in the sample app for my "Practical Redux" tutorial series [2] [3]. I also frequently recommend a tutorial series called "Building a Simple CRUD App with React + Redux" [4] as another "real-world" tutorial/example. That tutorial doesn't use CRA, but my "Practical Redux" sample app does. [0] [https://github.com/markerikson/redux-ecosystem- links/blob/ma...](https://github.com/markerikson/redux-ecosystem- links/blob/master/apps-and-examples.md) [1] [http://react.semantic-ui.com/](http://react.semantic-ui.com/) [2] [https://github.com/markerikson/project- minimek](https://github.com/markerikson/project-minimek) [3] [http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/series/practical- redux/](http://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/series/practical-redux/) [4] [http://www.thegreatcodeadventure.com/building-a-simple- crud-...](http://www.thegreatcodeadventure.com/building-a-simple-crud-app- with-react-redux-part-1/) ------ nickbauman The core of React is the VirtualDOM and how it simplifies interaction with the hypermedia. React has gone way past that original simplification toward curing cancer or solving the faster-than-light-speed problem (take your pick). This shazz should have been a separate effort. Most of the original criticisms centers around NPM, which belies the hell that is JavaScript. Since everyone compiles JS anyway, we should stop writing in it altogether. Pick some other language ecosystem that transpiles to JS. _Delenda Est NPM._ ------ philmander It's often seen as an advantage of React that it's just a view library and not a framework. But if you want to build any reasonable kind of modern web app, you'll need those extra elements like routing and state management. You effectively must piece together your own framework and the cognitive overhead of this is huge. At least for the first time anyway. ------ noshbrinken I love reading Dan Abramov's writing because I always learn two things at the same time: 1\. something about programming; 2\. something about communicating with people. ------ smdz There are a few things in React ecosystem that need to be abstracted. 1\. Redux 2\. React Router 3\. Smart components 4\. Dumb components 5\. Services (This is combination of Redux, redux-thunk and axios(or whatever)) 6\. Webpack (CSS loader, SCSS, fonts, html, etc...) 7\. And hopefully, everything with TypeScript if they can get over Flow. Having worked on quite a few React projects, I have a boilerplate that mashes up the above combination and makes it work. With new project, I upgrade the dependencies. But each time I start a new project in 3-4 months, something would have changed. Either its TS type defs or something in core React. And as I discovered recently few days back - Webpack2, Router4 broke my boilerplate setup. Well, they actually improved react-router, and that made me remove some workarounds. Every time I start, I end up spending at least half-to-one day setting up the same "Hello world" page and making sure the wiring works okay before I proceed to add functionality. That is just a waste of time. React core is cool, but I hope they had one highly-opinionated version of React that works out of the box. ~~~ asdfgadsfgasfdg create-react-app ~~~ smdz I get thrown that a lot, but unfortunately create-react-app is not the solution. It simply summarizes all the complexities in one place, it doesn't abstract those out. For starters - yes, definitely. They should start with it ~~~ spicyj If there are areas where create-react-app is a leaky abstraction, please file bugs. My understanding is that the maintainers aspire to have it completely shield you from configuring the underlying tools. ------ darth_mastah > Don’t use Redux if you don’t need it, as it is intentionally verbose. Yeah... People say that, but is it true? Lifting the state gets very messy very quickly and you end up with a spaghetti code before you know it, with the separation of concerns dying short yet painful death. For that reason I use Redux even in small projects, guarding myself against unnecessary verbosity with redux-actions. It's really that simple. I understand the need to prove that React can stand on its own without Redux, but the truth is, without Redux it's limping. ------ bigato Here's the article this one is meant to answer: [https://medium.com/@gianluca.guarini/things-nobody-will- tell...](https://medium.com/@gianluca.guarini/things-nobody-will-tell-you- about-react-js-3a373c1b03b4) ~~~ lucaspiller It is actually linked at the top of this article, although Medium's minimal design doesn't make that very clear. ------ spion Here is what is missing now in the React ecosystem [http://guides.rubyonrails.org/](http://guides.rubyonrails.org/) Thats it. A central place with an organised list of guides. Not a blog though. Also must cover things such as redux, mobx and routers, and how it all fits together. ~~~ acemarke I already have something pretty close to that :) I keep a big list of links to high-quality tutorials and articles on React, Redux, and related topics, at [https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux- links](https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux-links) . Specifically intended to be a great starting point for anyone trying to learn the ecosystem, as well as a solid source of good info on more advanced topics. (The entire list has just been me working it by myself with the occasional "add a link" PR from random other people, but I'd certainly appreciate any actual offers to help improve it, especially since my own knowledge is rather limited in a number of areas.) ~~~ lucaspiller The work you have done here is useful, but as pointed out in the original article, articles very quickly become outdated in the Javascript ecosystem. It's not just how libraries work (I haven't looked through the list too much, but I'm sure there are plenty of articles suggesting a Webpack 1.x configuration) but also the recommended way of doing things and what tools to use that changes. I guess this is one of the advantages Rails has being a monolith - as it provides nearly everything, it's very easy for them to keep up to date documentation of the 'Rails way' to do things. React and Redux have been relatively stable, but it's everything else that goes along with it that is the issue. ~~~ acemarke True, but it's also worth noting that the existence of a newer version of a lib doesn't completely invalidate the older version. For example, Webpack 2 _is_ out, but a Webpack 1 config and setup will still keep working just fine. Ditto for, say, React-Router v3 vs v4. ------ beefman This post does a great job refuting minor points while completely ignoring the central arguments of the original.[1][2] The React TodoMVC weighs some 451 lines -- more than vanilla JS, jQuery, and over twice as much as Vue. There are weird incentives in software ecosystems. Companies benefit by controlling one because they can hire easily, and ensure their code & tools will not become obsolete. And the more complex ecosystems become, the harder it is for devs to compare them or switch. I think there were similar forces at work in the UIs of large GUI applications like DAWs. Once you get through the painful learning process, you find you love it, and find it impossible to switch -- a phenomenon that has attracted comparisons to Stockholm syndrome. [1] [https://gist.github.com/GianlucaGuarini/b9238a187ef13897b71e...](https://gist.github.com/GianlucaGuarini/b9238a187ef13897b71e15e4906e4499) [2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14184666](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14184666) ~~~ acemarke React's benefits come through more at scale. If you just want to add a bit of interactivity to a page, sure, jQuery is going to be fewer LOC and KB. If you're trying to write a large full-blown application that's 10K, 50K, 100K LOC, with tons of views and lots of data to manage, jQuery won't cut it. React helps you build the UI in manageable, understandable, reusable pieces. ~~~ beefman A valid point, but TodoMVC is enough of an app that I feel we shouldn't be multiplying jQuery by 2. No larger benchmarks exist, but I'm reasonably confident React would still be substantially larger than e.g. Riot, Vue, or Svelte. And yes, conventions have value, but it's a zero-sum kind of value that comes at the expense of all other possible conventions. ------ mswift42 While Abramov's points sound reasonable, his post could do with a less patronising tone. ~~~ danabramov Sorry. Fixed. :-) ~~~ spicyj You're doing it again with the smiley faces Dan. (As someone who knows Dan, I'd bet money that this smiley face is genuine. Still, easy to misread.) ~~~ danabramov I'll attach webcam photos next time. :-) ------ mcguire To quote Doc Martin, that sounds appalling. ------ sksixk i find the passive-aggresive emojis in these "response" blog posts amusing. ~~~ danabramov Thanks for feedback! I use them all the time on Twitter, and didn't mean to do it in a passive aggressive way. I removed them. ------ metehe Facebook rewrites gonna scare whole lot users.. react projects seems to be very fragile in versioning process.. I would prefer Riot.js instead.. a much less headaches ~~~ haukur The React API _is_ stable. There haven't been any major changes to its public- facing API in a long time. Third-party projects that you might also depend on are not always as stable but the React team has no control over that (and third-party dependencies don't have anything to do with React itself or fiber). ------ plandis This is a failure in obsessing over your customers. Rather than refuting a noobs comments, perhaps that is a great time to learn what exactly is painful for new people and fixing it? ~~~ aeze The comments are being mostly refuted because they're mostly misconceptions. ------ bigato I'd love to read an answer to this: "what do you expect from a framework with more than 1000 issues on github that will let you install alpha dependencies by default ([email protected]) to develop your native app?!?" ~~~ scrollaway I'll answer it: When you become popular and have a lot of momentum, the Github issue tracker becomes extremely hard to manage. This is partly Github's fault as well (the tracker is optimized for small repositories and throwaway issues, which is also why I like it a lot). This is aggravated in the JS world which is extremely Github-centric. NodeJS: 730 open issues, 4323 closed issues, 324 open pull requests, 7201 closed pull requests: [https://github.com/nodejs/node](https://github.com/nodejs/node) Ansible: 1863 open issues, 9204 closed issues, 1084 pull requests, 11762 closed pull requests: [https://github.com/ansible/ansible/issues](https://github.com/ansible/ansible/issues) ~~~ julianmarq So (much like the OP), your non-answer is moving the goalpost and blaming something else, and even that only partially "addresses" the issue brought up? Seems appropriate. ~~~ scrollaway I answered the matter of open issues, and I have enough experience in open source to back that up. There's not _one_ issue brought up in the original post scriptum, there's two stitched together into a big fat strawman. Please voice your concerns about me only "partially" addressing anything to [email protected]. ~~~ spicyj (For clarity – this person does not work at Facebook despite that convincing [email protected] email.) ~~~ scrollaway Sorry, I tried making a joke, and upon re-reading I see how it could have been misread :) Edited out. ~~~ spicyj No worries.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Morse.rb - qhoxie http://judofyr.net/posts/morse.html ====== silentbicycle The really fun part is when you have to maintain code like this that somebody else thought was a good idea. Adam's refactoring is actually quite clean: [http://refactormycode.com/codes/513-morse-code-encoder- decod...](http://refactormycode.com/codes/513-morse-code-encoder- decoder#refactor_39063) Refactoring code is about making it clearer, cleaner, and easy to adapt in the future. Not this. ~~~ tlrobinson Indeed, this code reminded me of a Brian Kernighan quote: _Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it._ ~~~ silentbicycle Nice!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Microsoft should dump Windows Phone -Robert Scoble - magsafe http://www.geekwire.com/2014/ex-microsoft-evangelist-robert-scoble-advises-former-employer-give-windows-phone/ ====== rmason In the seventies and eighties you just didn't see Japanese cars on the road in Michigan. The Big 3 execs all drove each others products but never a Toyota or a Honda. They could see on paper they were losing market share to the Japanese but it didn't seem real to them until it was too late. Reading Scoble's comments about not seeing Windows Phones until landing in Seattle made me think maybe the same market blindness is possibly happening to the Microsoft execs. ~~~ philliphaydon I don't believe he's travelled very far. I live in south east Asia and see Windows Phones (specificity Nokia) ALL the time. In Thailand it seems to be super popular as a cheap phone. Everyone owns iPhone or Windows Phone. Seen them a lot in Cambodia too. ~~~ ZeroGravitas This is just a subtler aspect of the same problem. In those areas, they're not buying Microsoft phones, they're buying Nokia phones. Microsoft did not buy the Nokia brand name for use on smartphones. If you believe, like I do, that the limited sales of Microsoft phones are actually mostly due to brand loyalty to a different brand, then the situation is a lot more dire than it seems at first.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What are the dark corners of Vim your mom never told you about? - duck http://stackoverflow.com/questions/726894/what-are-the-dark-corners-of-vim-your-mom-never-told-you-about ====== rbanffy Mom was into IBM mainframes. She never used vim.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Is there a seed bubble? - phil_KartMe http://www.philmichaelson.com/fundraising/is-there-a-seed-bubble/ ====== phil_KartMe If anyone has stats on angel funds and fundings, please let me know. I'd love to firm up the assumptions in the main equation. I'm looking for: 1) Number of "seed" funds & average size of fund 2) % ownership a seed investor likes to have at exit & time to exit Thanks!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Any recommendations for PCI audit firms - pjg We are a payment processor and do routine audits. Our currently auditor is busy and has a long lead time for PCI DSS Level 1 audit. Any recommendations from anyone for a company they have worked with that can do PCI audits efficiently and not too expensive ? ====== luminousbit Schellman & Co have been our auditor for the past 8 years. They're very cloud- savvy and I consider them the best in the biz. They're about mid-range in price. ~~~ pjg Thanks. Do you know anyone there that you are comfortable sending me contact info for ? ------ jpdlla Just completed the whole PCI DSS compliance and audit for the first time with [https://www.sikich.com](https://www.sikich.com) ~~~ pjg Thanks much. You know anyone there we can get in touch with ? I sent them an email thru their generic contact email [email protected] ------ Artemis2 Email me (address is in my profile), I can put you in touch with our current firm. The process has been very smooth for us in the past. ------ ddsaso I've really enjoyed working with Sikich. ------ s800 kirkpatrick-price, they have a nice web tool to organize the process. No relationship. ~~~ sec_zen Yes, we use them as well and they do a great job. Far greater quality than any of the past firms we used.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Thought for iPhone – express yourself beyond 140 characters - jamando http://thgt.is ====== ilyaeck Love the logo, but I am wondering what makes blogging on mobile so different? Is it the small keyboard? Do we really need a radically different tool? ~~~ jamando We think that mobile blogging will be very different from desktop because before mobile came along blogposts were produced and consumed in certain settings on a certain device — mainly by people sitting at home or work, having a big screen before them and that heavily shaped the medium. You couldn't drop a few lines about something and call it a blogpost, so writing a single thought usually required a few hours or even days. You had to put a lot effort into drafting it and making it worth reading so it almost felt like a duty. On the contrast to desktop, mobile blogging will probably have its own unique format, a shortpost that is a bit longer than a tweet yet way shorter than a blogpost, it will require a few minutes to be written and easily shared, free from hassle. We also think that motives for writing something brief on the device carried with you will be different from motives of writing something on your home computer late in the evening. ~~~ ilyaeck Good old LiveJournal used to have mood tags for posts. Sounds like you may want to explore something similar. Good luck! ~~~ jamando Thanks. This is true, emotional aspect of post is very important. In our case, Color Themes were made for the purpose of helping people enhance a message by selecting a matching color mood. ------ thebladerunner Now here's a thought! ------ lamonda Looks pretty slick, love the UI. But I was expecting to have an image posted to my Twitter rather than URL to a page with my text. ~~~ jamando Thanks for the feedback! We've decided to stay with links for a few reasons: 1) With image you can only fit a screenful of text, and sometimes people write more than that. 2) Images are downscaled by Twitter on upload and depending on the screen size they will look different, in our opinion that's not the best, consistent user experience. 3) It's just the first step towards a product we want to build so having Twitter as the only way to share a thought is temporary. ~~~ dang Please, no astroturfing or voting rings on HN. ------ goldcers Well, I don't know! I love it! Just to have myself fully explained.. ------ jeromegaltz How do I access my posted thoughts? ~~~ jamando You can only see unpublished thoughts (drafts). Once a thought is posted — it's gone.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Data Grid for Framer - focuser https://twitter.com/lintonye/status/1193634615346417664 ====== focuser Join the webinar to learn more about it: [https://ti.to/learnreact/data- grid](https://ti.to/learnreact/data-grid)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Top Dying Industries, and lessons for your startup - onik69 http://feefighters.com/blog/the-10-worst-businesses-to-start/ ====== runT1ME Wow, I think this article is taking quite a leap calling shrinking industries dying. I'm not sure anyone would argue that the typewriter industry is anything but dying, or the pager market. However, does anyone really think that wired telephone lines are going to disappear from business anytime soon? Or that apparel companies aren't going to need manufacturers? _Shrinking_ industries are a great place to introduce disruption, and many times profit can be made from causing a market to shrink. Anytime a high margin industry have an entrant willing to take lower margins, the industry is going to shrink, but it's not bad for anyone but the incumbents. Take a look at Redhat and MySQL, they were happy to take high margin, hugely profitable industries and contribute to their decline, because it _allowed them to capture a bigger chunk of a smaller market_. It just so happened it was good for all the rest of us too. ~~~ il Do you have a landline phone? Do you know anyone under 50 who does? Is there any reason to have a landline phone nowadays when you can make VoIP calls from home for free with Google Voice? I think the writing is on the wall for that industry. ~~~ joe_the_user Land-line providers are now broadband providers. But that doesn't leave them small or unimportant. The value of wired-lines is still a lot. That said, wireless is inherently more efficient than wired and so it seem likely wired technology is going to go by the wayside. ------ dasil003 It's certainly an interesting list, but I have to question whether this is anything but preaching to the choir. "Don't ignore technology, innovate, bla bla blah", this is just boilerplate silicon valley talk. Just because an industry is on the decline doesn't mean there's no opportunity there. Hell would you rather compete in a billion dollar market that used to be 2 billion, or enter a nascent market where you run out of cash before it's even big enough to sustain you? If you want to be the next Google then you'd probably go with the latter, but remember, Google didn't get where they are today by wanting to be the next Google. It wasn't all planned out, they did it by taking advantage of opportunities along the way. ~~~ fredBuddemeyer i strongly recommend staying away from dying industries; the issue is not so much the size of the market. an industry on the decline doesn't have new users: people that make the purchase decision you are asking for. a smaller yet dynamic market is made mostly of such people so it can actually have more potential buyers. i run an old company in fixed wire telecom, (bigredwire) and a new one in social media (littleBiggy) and i see this every day. ------ JonLim Going to disagree about the video postproduction services - there will always be a market for that even though editing tools are becoming cheaper and easier to use. Why? How many people know how to use Adobe After Effects or Apple Motion and know how to use it well? Not many! Video produced by amateurs is a sure fire way to turn people away from your business. I think the demand for this will be just fine. ~~~ pitdesi Agreed that there will always be a market for video postproduction (and actually all of the other things on the list too), but it is dying (in terms of revenues), because having a guy who knows how to use After Effects is a lot cheaper than making special effects on film. ~~~ JonLim That I can see. However, there still seems to be a lot of admiration for the guys who can pull off special effects in real life over digitally adding them later. As far as I can tell. ------ bergie You could also argue that a "dying industry" would be an excellent market to enter and do things differently ~~~ pitdesi I agree with that statement generally. One (sort of) case in point is American Apparel. While they are now in deep shit (nearly going to bankruptcy but just got rescued), they were doing pretty well for a few years as a vertically integrated apparel maker, with a factory in downtown LA. Hard to think of other examples. ~~~ seanharper I think its debatable whether american apparel did well because they were vertically integrated / located in the US, or in spite of it. Nucor is another example frequently cited as a company innovating in a shrinking industry. But they have had their share of troubles as well. ------ joe_the_user This article continues my dislike for "argument through top ten lists". The problem with long lists of X is they can include some things where the argument is clear cut and no one disagrees, then once they get you nodding yes, they can then include other things where the situation is more debatable. Wired carriers and newspaper printing are indeed two industries which technology at least promises to leave by the wayside. Arguably they've been disrupted or are being disrupted and, whether they will or not, we could at least imagine them shrinking to nothing at all in some number of years. Home building, on the other hand, is merely in cyclical downturn. It hasn't been meaningfully disrupted on the same sense of the word. It's had a rough downturn but people will keep needing housing. Manufactured homes tend to be one the low end, so, indeed, they've been hit hardest. But still, homes as they are built now involve a huge rat-bag of inefficient, wasted and manual labor. The possibility of manufacturing a better house in very-cost-efficient fashion certainly _is_ a tremendous opportunity for some organization (probably fairly large scale, however). I don't know what combination of automation and design would work but unlike newspapers or wired-networks, there is a big opportunity here. ------ mikecarlucci Maybe I'm off base, but for #10 formal clothing rentals, if people are dressing up less often, wouldn't it make more sense to rent a suit or tux for an event than to spend several (or more) times that amount for something you won't wear again or could go out of fashion/no longer fit when the next opportunity arises? ~~~ pitdesi More accurate is probably "less people are dressing up." Those that are dressing up are buying. I bought a tux for less than twice the cost of a rental ------ Bitsofstardust What about industries that were in strong decline but successfully reinvented themselves such as fast food? ------ rick888 Movie rental places are dying, but I think there is still room for niche Netflix type sites.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Students learn more effectively from print textbooks than screens, study says - ALee http://www.businessinsider.com/students-learning-education-print-textbooks-screens-study-2017-10 ====== Adutude Interesting tidbit, in the sentence in the article " To explore these patterns further, we conducted three studies that explored college students' ability to comprehend information on paper and from screens." "Three studies" is linked to a single study, not three. The study is on the site tandfonline.com (Taylor and Francis), where you have to pay to read the study. Also interesting is that Taylor and Francis, on their website taylorandfrancis.com, says "Taylor & Francis Group publishes books for all levels of academic study and professional development, across a wide range of subjects and disciplines." So long story short, this is a study saying that books are better, that's on a site who's main business is publishing books. Not saying the study is inaccurate, but I find an article, about how books are better, on a book publishers site, somewhat suspect. ~~~ slg I did an in depth review of the research for a Human Computer Interaction class in college a couple years back before the Taylor and Francis study and the research then generally agreed with the idea that reading a print book was the best for comprehension (I tried quickly searching for the paper to pull sources, but no luck). However that difference appeared to be mostly related to form factor and not necessarily from the screen itself. Studies that used tablets showed smaller gaps in performance than studies that used computers. Studies that used e-ink e-readers showed almost no difference in comprehension. I was not able to find a single study that compared more than 2 or 3 different devices using the same methodology. If I were to design a study I would want to see a full range of tests including print books, e-ink e-readers, tablets with full color screens, traditional computer monitors, and e-ink monitors. Hopefully then you could better isolate the cause of the lower comprehension. My own hypothesis (I have a comp sci degree, so take this psychology explanation with a grain of salt) is that comprehension is more dependent on the person's approach to the technology rather than the technology itself. Books are single purpose devices. When you have a book in your hand your brain knows it is time to focus on reading. When you sit down at a computer, the brain doesn't know what to expect or to focus on. It is similar to other advice about training your brain to expect certain activities such as reserving your bedroom only for sleeping or to have a dedicated home office if you work remotely. ~~~ nabla9 My hypothesis is that the difference is related to how memory works by associations and spatial cognition. I read lots of research papers and books. I have tried to switch to e-readers several times, but it never works. I learn the subject slower and I remember much less of what I read from e-reader. I use computers and e-readers to skim or check some details, but never to thoroughly study. If I read physical book or printed article and underline it, leave coffee stains on the paper etc. I'm working with actual physical object. When I achieve the paper in a map, I can often recall where the book is stored physically and even the coffee stains and notes in the paper. I think physical book or paper works the same way as memory palace technique. You remember stuff by working with them physically better than in abstract. Physical library might be mirrored in our mind. Ancient augmented memory technology we did not know we have and might lose. E-reader or computer associates everything to the same object. ~~~ tr0ut Personally my experiences have been the complete opposite. There are a number of reasons paper books are always going to be second to ebooks to me. The idea of lugging a book/s around. Hunting for a book at a shop or library when I'm feeling the itch to read it sooner rather than later. Flipping through pages whilst looking back up at a screen breaks my concentration. etc.. When the first gen Kindle was released I ordered it right away. It was one of the most liberating devices I've ever owned. I managed to read a ton of books that had been on my read-list for ages. This obviously has much more to do with having everything you want to read immediately available and also the discrete portability to do such. Also when I would underline text in a book it was as if my brain shutoff. Subconsciously i'm thinking 'Okay I saved this part in the book'. When I'd go back my train of thought is gone and thus the highlight is out of context. So that bit of physicality returns zero for me personally. ~~~ Terretta This feels like you’re having a different conversation, there was no debate about portability or convenience. Also, highlighting is one of the worst ways to try to learn: [http://ideas.time.com/2013/01/09/highlighting-is-a-waste- of-...](http://ideas.time.com/2013/01/09/highlighting-is-a-waste-of-time-the- best-and-worst-learning-techniques/) ~~~ tr0ut I apologize for the confusion. My response was half directed towards the post of Nabla9. "If I read physical book or printed article and underline it, leave coffee stains on the paper etc. I'm working with actual physical object. When I achieve the paper in a map, I can often recall where the book is stored physically and even the coffee stains and notes in the paper." Thus my response on highlighting. So what is it about paper or e-books? The debate is between paper and lcd? I was thinking there is something more tangible that makes one more appealing than the other. No? Which is why I stated why I lean towards one more than the other. A practicality rather than a hidden nuance. Which I'm assuming is the real reason? ------ ktta I think the big mistake one can do when comparing digital and physical textbooks is compare then one-on-one with a level playing field. Why do that? Digital textbooks can offer so much more than print textbooks. They can have embedded interactive content, ranging from extremely zoomable 2D content to see something in detail to rotatable 3D models. They can have videos. Or just audio, say to listen to case studies or know how a bird sounds. They can have automatically gradable quizzes and exercises. There is so much more digital books can offer. Once you bring in these advantages, I bet the pedagogical advantages will be enormous. I'd like to see _that_ study, and I bet digital books will blow everything out of the water. There are advantages apart from learning benefits. Errata can be a thing of a past with updatable textbooks. You can search for every single word easily and save time. There's no wear and tear. Students can get away with having textbooks on their phones, avoiding carrying textbooks weighing several pounds. Another huge benefit is accessibility. From large font to audio output, all accessibility features ever possible on a computer are possible with the textbook with minimal effort. The publishing industry is only limiting itself because any innovation on its digital books will mean death of its money maker. It will mean much less production and distribution costs which will put in question its atrocious pricing. ~~~ tpkj > Digital textbooks can offer so much more than print textbooks. Yes, digital textbooks can offer so much more, and yet maybe the "so much more" is their biggest pitfall: they (and/or the device serving as their platform) offer near limitless opportunities for distraction. While our attention span - or our lack thereof, trained as we are by the 3 second rule TV commercials push on us - might be able to get a major workout that leaves us exhausted and feeling like we have accomplished something (though in reality, hardly anything) - the digital format and form of delivery can rob us of our ability to freely focus. Let's face it, even with a good old-fashioned hard cover we can encounter distractions, and when we use digital, we're opening ourselves up to overwhelming levels of "opportunities for distraction" in which environment the human mind/body/condition is incapable of flourishing. Ironically, the very limitations of the physical textbook may be one of its liberating features. ~~~ ktta I think that argument is often made because it is easy to make. Just because one reads from a paper textbook means one is avoiding distractions? What about phones and their incessant alerts? One way you can avoid distractions is to limit the features of the device. Pull internet access. The problem here is with the student more than the device. I tend to get distracted a lot when reading a digital textbook too. It takes effort, but also does not looking at your phone when you are reading a textbook. ~~~ tpkj [https://hbr.org/2017/10/in-a-distracted-world-solitude- is-a-...](https://hbr.org/2017/10/in-a-distracted-world-solitude-is-a- competitive-advantage) ------ kendallpark > There may be economic and environmental reasons to go paperless. There are also practical considerations. I much prefer physical textbooks but their bulk presents an issue. It's not fun hauling around one tome per class. I remember back in high school my backpack weighed 30+ lbs. Last year I bought a 12.9 iPad pro as a textbook replacement. It works great (still miss the physical paper though). It has also greatly reduced the amount of weight on my shoulders during my bike commute to and from school. Nowadays I only carry my laptop and my tablet in my backpack. Goodnotes can handle huge PDFs and enables me to write on and highlight the text. Voice Dream Reader is a great app to help slog through boring reading (Salli is the best voice I've found so far for scientific lit). I don't use Kindle-like ebooks for textbooks. Similar to what u/acconrad said, I need to be able to write on the text. With all that in mind, my iPad pro is a designated READING device. I have notifications aggressively disabled for pretty much every app. No Facebook social media apps allowed. I won't/can't even log into Facebook on my web browser (someone else manages my password). ~~~ noobhacker Do you write math or long notes, or just a few words? I have not found any stylus / tablet combination that allows me to write as freely as pen / paper, no matter how much I'd like to go digital for portability. ~~~ bunderbunder It's not too burdensome to add a notebook and pen to your kit. When I was last in school, I also used an iPad (with GoodReader, GoodNotes & Voice Dream, 'cuz each is better than the others at at least one thing I care about), but I only used it for reading and annotating books & papers. I agree that it's not a great option as a replacement for a notebook. ~~~ kendallpark What is your use case for GoodReader? I'm curious. ------ jstewartmobile I don't know if this really matters when it's horrible vs slightly less horrible... It's like you pay hundreds of dollars for a textbook on a subject that hasn't changed in generations, and it's filled with pictures and diagrams and asides and any other layout doodadery their software can muster, but when you get to the exercises it's a pig's breakfast. I remember my physics textbook in college was almost $200 ($200 twenty years ago!), I'd grind out the answer with a fair degree of confidence, check the key... wrong!? Then after banging my head against it for hours and giving up, the professor would tell us the next day that the book was wrong. Next year, we had differential equations. Smaller book, older book, more words, fewer pictures--clear as a bell! Probably learned more physics in a semester of differential equations than a year of physics. Good books make a difference. Unfortunately, the physics book was the rule rather than the exception. ~~~ novalis78 I collect textbooks as a hobby. It amazes me to no end how the textbooks have changed in the last 120 years. It's especially fascinating to look at math and engineering books from the "Apollo program generation". One thing that sticks out is the huge amount of text that guides the student in building up a deep mental picture and lots of thought-associations in all of these technical books. Somehow after the 60s this approach that is fairly consistent going back a 100 years suddenly is replaced with books that feature a ton of pictures and turn into 'trick and exercise' books until they completely explode with color and small text snippets in the 90s. I have my suspicions that the earlier textual approach might have had its merits. Not sure if anyone has done a comparative study on the effects of organizing text books and their long term effectiveness ------ manmal My guess is that this is related to spatial memory. A lot of memorizing techniques somehow use space to anchor memories on; eg the old Greeks used to walk down the city’s main street while rehearsing speeches, and anchoring topics spatially onto the buildings. A textbook is not exactly a street you are walking down, but it does have a certain physical place for every topic, and our brain can anchor it there, like „let me see, differential equations are in the last third.. ah there is this other topic, I know that diff equations come right after that“. ~~~ spongeb00b You've conveyed the exact problem I have with ebooks for any kind of technical reference. I read novels in ebook formats and have no problem with there, but after trying several O'Reilly and other publishers works I just found somehow unable to take in the information I was reading. Quickly scanning through to look something up is just impossible and built-in search functions are just miserable. ~~~ randomstudent This is a major problem for me when reading digital material, especially if not on something like a PC. On the comuter I can at least Ctrl+F for the part I'm after. ------ acconrad The fourth reason is that some things can't be measured? That seems suspect. I can think of two seemingly obvious inferences from this study that were not mentioned. 1\. Digital devices offer more distractions because unlike a book, you also get a slew of other apps (and the internet) at the touch of a button to distract you. Even if you are iron-willed, an OS update will pop up and break your concentration from time to time, a physical book will never present anything other than what it has already printed for you. 2\. Books can be written on. I have a Kindle and I can't imagine reading something like Skiena's _Algorithms_ book on it because the effort to take any kind of useful notes far exceeds that of a physical book. You can write in the margins, comment, highlight, all of which helps solidify your understanding. Kindles and iPads may have those things, but they are likely limited in fashion and not nearly as low of an effort to produce as with a book (unless of course it's rented for the semester and you're prohibited from writing in it). ~~~ sus_007 Most of the devices out there could be equipped with write-on feature should the owner install required app for it. I'm a monthly subscriber to Adobe Creative Cloud and I must say Adobe Acrobat DC is the only reader that you'll ever require. You can do almost anything that is digitally possible using the app. I can even write Javascript over my PDF documents. ------ pizza The idea that scrolling may be jarring enough to hamper reading fits my experience. When I scroll, it doesn't feel like just my browser has to repaint the whole webpage, but it also feels like my _brain_ has to reconstitute the structure of the page via a kind of inverse-repainting, just so that I can reorient my attention, before I can resume it. In other words, if I \- have a (semantic) pointer to, say, the last word on a line \- am maintaining just the single last word I read in my short-term memory/register \- scroll and then have to look for the line I was just on before I have reoriented myself then it feels like I have to do a kind of mechanistic attention- interrupt/syscall that locks my conscious interpretation of the text's meaning until I have returned to the index of the text that I was just at. I guess that also explains why sometimes, when I am simultaneously trying to reflect on the text _while_ scrolling, I am significantly less able to do so fluidly, as if there were some underlying deadlock, and more often than not have to repeatedly attempt finding the next line.. But if you hold a book in your hands, there is much less variation in the 'streamed/online/', structural form of the text. More or less, all that my brain knows it needs to anticipate is page turning. It can figure out how to cancel out my hand movements, background visual information, surroundings, etc. from my conscious experience because that's what we've evolved to be able to suppress from our attention. Maybe, then, computer file viewing UIs that have page-flipping skeuomorphisms are less attention interrupting, because they would avoid these interruptions being done more than one time per page/pair of pages? Link to the mentioned paper: [http://www.co.twosides.info/download/To_Scroll_or_Not_to_Scr...](http://www.co.twosides.info/download/To_Scroll_or_Not_to_Scroll_Scrolling_Working_Memory_Capacity_and_Comprehending_Complex_Texts.pdf) ~~~ mhei I feel the pagination method demonstrated here is advantageous in that regard, eliminating vertical motion while allowing to see parts of two "pages" at the same time: [http://www.magicscroll.net/](http://www.magicscroll.net/) I would love to have that on my ebook reader, may need to hack that together some time to try. I dislike switching back and forth between two pages as is sometimes necessary; in this regard, this even seems better to me than a regular book. ------ synicalx I tend to find there's uses for both physical and digital textbooks; \- Physicals you can spread out, highlight stuff, visually search much fast when you DON'T know exactly what you're looking for, and you can also re-sell them when you're done. \- Digital weighs nothing, is cheaper, you can ctrl-f if you DO know what you're looking for, and often come with tools to bookmark/highlight etc. Ideally if I'm dropping $100+ on a textbook I'd like to get access to both. If I'm going to a class I'll take the digital one, if I'm sat at home doing research/writing/reading then I'll use the physical one. Also I'm incredibly vain when it comes to my bookshelves, I aim to have enough books for an in- home library by the time I retire. ------ hannob So I wanted to have a look at the studies they did. One would cost me $36 dollar to see, the other $42 for 24 hour access and $102 for 30 days access. tl;dr you don't want me to read your research. ------ reificator I didn't see anything about eink screens in that article except a mention that they exist. They claim the cost of scrolling is the issue, which is something that I've not seen on an ereader. Page refreshes are a different animal to scrolling, despite the (potentially) distracting flicker they are deterministic: one press is one page. Scrolling is a more analogue interaction, scrolling by one page requires more focus than pressing a button once. ------ adpirz This doesn't really seem to hold much water. For one, the study was done on college undergrads, a non-randomly selected group who have crossed a certain bar for basic comprehension (looks like the researchers are from the U of Maryland, a major university, so you can expect that the students on average will have well above-average reading comprehension compared to the rest of the world). On top of that, as a former K12 educator, the tools matter far less than the teacher implementing them and the fidelity of execution, very little of which seems to be explored by this study. I don't think digital texts or computers in classrooms are a panacea for what ails our classrooms or that digitizing textbooks is even that exciting when it comes to EdTech -- it's just taking a 19th century tool and digitizing it. This study, however, does not effectively demonstrate that either medium is better than the other, but the Ed world is in desperate need of strong research in that regard, specifically in the efficacy of EdTech in the classroom. ------ wudangmonk Assuming the discrepancy cannot be solved by simply carrying around a notepad to write with whenever you are reading something you want a deeper understanding of, the digital medium offers many benefits in my opinion that make it better overall. I cannot stand reading on a white background for long periods of time. If I had to deal with a white background I simply would not read as much. Being able to change both font size and type is also useful because publishers do not always make a sane choice for you. Above all, I think price is the best reason. You might be able to get away with charging $100+ dollars for a printed book but you cannot do that with printed books, therefore book prices have to come down. Even if there actually is a loss in comprehension when actively reading and not just passive reading, the overall benefits of reading more whether its because you can now buy more books due to the lower prices or because you can change the color/text to suit your taste has to outweigh the benefits offered by printed books. ------ speedplane I found these bullet points from the article pretty insightful: > \- Reading was significantly faster online than in print. > \- Students judged their comprehension as better online than in print. > \- Paradoxically, overall comprehension was better for print versus digital > reading. So with digital reading, you feel like you've learned more than print, but you've actually learned less. This seems pretty dangerous. ~~~ Mindless2112 > This seems pretty dangerous. It sounds pretty much like the Internet as a whole. ~~~ pls2halp On the note of the internet as a whole displaying this, there was a study a while ago which found "searching the Internet for explanatory knowledge creates an illusion whereby people mistake access to information for their own personal understanding of the information." [http://doi.apa.org/getdoi.cfm?doi=10.1037/xge0000070](http://doi.apa.org/getdoi.cfm?doi=10.1037/xge0000070) (I first heard about it through the You Are Not So Smart podcast:[https://youarenotsosmart.com/2015/11/25/yanss-063-how- search...](https://youarenotsosmart.com/2015/11/25/yanss-063-how-search- engines-make-us-feel-smarter-than-we-really-are/)) ------ cloverich > In our academic lives, we have books and articles that we regularly return > to. The dog-eared pages of these treasured readings contain lines of text > etched with questions or reflections. It's difficult to imagine a similar > level of engagement with a digital text. Is it? I read nearly exclusively on my kindle for exactly the opposite reason. I find it much easier to keep highlights and notes, then quickly return to them. And the note taking technology on the kindle is crude. Imagine if it was an _actually_ good experience? If note taking were easier (typing is painful). If the data were free (to be shared with other services). If it were easy to connect with others taking notes on the same topics, at the same time? If clicking on an image of a map made it interactive. There are so many possibilities, most of them untapped. I miss reading things on paper. But if our technology were to improve to half of its potential, I'm not sure I would. ~~~ ilaksh Have you really tried to research that beyond the Kindle? Look at new products from Google and Microsoft or aimed at the legal market. There are great handwriting notes systems out there. ------ ilaksh How big was this study? Did they test how well the students performed when they had to search for information? They say that the students read much faster on the screen. What if they just slow down a bit? The textbook industry is corrupt and will believe or promote anything to try to hold on to profits. Wasting all of that paper and making people lug around a bunch of heavy books is asinine. ------ chw9e A big plus that is still kind of yet to be realized is the increase in utility of notes taken on a device. I like to jot notes in the margins of books and papers while I'm reading, but I almost never go back and look at them. Every once in a while I'll end up searching trying to find where I wrote my note, and usually can never find it. Recently I have started using Apple Pencil, Apple's Notes app and iBooks to read and jot down ideas. Apple's Notes app already supports searching for handwritten notes, and I hope that soon iBooks can support searching for handwritten notes in PDFs. These apps combined with Spotlight really increase the value of notes + a collection of books/papers, as it turns your device into kind of a personal database. ------ quuquuquu This is a halfway decent article from Business Insider. I find myself 50/50 on this issue. When I need cutting edge info, or niche info, I typically read it on a screen. When I need offline info, or low power info, or simply a different aesthetic for some reason, I love a nice book. Especially for older info. Surprisingly, discovery of info is pretty boundless and fun at a large University library, because books are sorted by topics. I don't need to endlessly query Google for the most authoritative resources. Personally I really feel we need both sources of info. Both types of print have pros and cons. I don't know if I "perform" better with one type of print though. "Better" is very subjective, and when I was in college in 2010-13, all of my tests were written paragraphs/essays. Totally subjective. ------ jansho For me it’s the medium itself. eBooks are ok if they’re short or fiction, but for heavy duty reading, I need a wide spread, and I need to be able to annotate and flick through fast, either to preview or jump to another section. Can’t do all that on a digital device. ------ downer71 I believe it. Learning how to operate a machine to control what gets displayed is such a distraction, in and of itself. Endless diversions and digressions, even if the devic has no internet. Procrastination just explodes exponentially. ------ Fomite This doesn't terribly surprise me, from my own experience. I either print academic journal articles or subscribe to the physical issues, because I found I never fully retained things I read on a screen, either desktop or iPad. ~~~ wernercd Likewise... Personally, I think that the addition of tactile, flipping around, lack of distractions, etc... all the little bits add up to a more "immersive" learning experience from books. It strikes me as an offshoot of an article recently that said that simply having a phone in the same room as a person decreases their ability to focus. ------ thadk Why are we 10 years into Kindle's evolution and the renderer still does not draw pages exactly the same way every time you load the same page (paginating forward vs. paginating backward, at the same font size)? I have to expect that this will reduce spatial-visual memory where people remember what position a figure or text had on a page versus a better renderer (PDF, though impractical on small screens) or a physical book and I'd like to see a study which distinguishes this effect. ------ rmbeard This study does suggest that we are doing web development all wrong and that browser functionality is exacerbating this, instead of scrolling we could be doing something like this: [http://www.creativebloq.com/html5/create-page- flip-effect-ht...](http://www.creativebloq.com/html5/create-page-flip-effect- html5-canvas-8112798) or using any number of similar solutions in jquery. ~~~ dictum Hard nope. I don't have any research on this, but ergonomic concerns that apply to e-reader devices doesn't necessarily apply to desktop/laptop browsers. Personally, I find scrolling short-length content much better than having to transition screens. For longer reads, I set my ebook app to paginate. A tacky page flip effect only adds an unwanted distraction. ------ anderskev As others have mentioned I would assume distractions have something to do with it. Whenever I need to learn a new language for work I always opt for a paper copy of a book, and other than photography books those are the only physical ones I have purchased in the last 10+ years. New frameworks obviously I go with a screen as that material changes pretty rapidly, but just baseline getting started with a language, physical book works best for me. ------ jamesrcole > _There may be economic and environmental reasons to go paperless. But there > 's clearly something important that would be lost with print's demise_ The argument put forth in the article is fundamentally flawed. They're assuming that "screens" has a fixed meaning, to mean what it's like now. But we're actually at very early stages of reading content off screens, and there's a lot of scope of that experience to change in the future. Better displays, better ways to interact with the content, better ways to annotate the content, better ways to deal with distractions on the device, etc etc. Maybe in the end we'll discover print is definitively better, but we are currently a long way from being able to make that claim. ------ BatFastard Seems like there is a deeper discussion going on here. Not only Print Vs Digital, but also open educational materials Vs "History of the World version 324". I personally prefer printed materials for extended reading, but it is really just a matter of taste. So if we see a study which says "Printed text books are better", it should really add "For SOME PEOPLE". Give students a choice! Give parents a choice! I recall buying two copies of a 120 dollar book just so my son would not have to lug its 5kg back and forth each day from school. The sheer amount of weight students have to carry is ludicrous. Open educational materials solves so many of these problems. ------ ionised I'm a software developer and I still find I prefer print over screen, both when engaging in field-specific study or just simply reading for pleasure. Most of the free tutorials I use are found on websites though so that's how I do most of my learning. When it comes to tried and tested texts like Pragmatic Programmer, Effective Java, Web Application Hacker's Handbook etc. I will always buy the hard copy textbook and forego the use of the eBook. I had a Kindle Paper White at one point and while I used it a fair bit when travelling, I still preferred stocking a bookshelf with hard copies for reading at home. Something about the experience of flipping through pages makes the whole process that much smoother for me. ------ newman8r Physical vs digital copies offer different advantages, and for someone who's serious about mastering the material, it probably makes sense to consider having both. For overall comprehension, my feeling is that the advantage of physical books is related to spatial memory, and seems related to "memory palace" techniques for memorization. I can physically recall pages of books I've read many years ago, but I really don't get the same thing from a digital copy. Being able to search within digital copies is a clear advantage. The markup/review software and document management system also makes a huge difference. ------ notadoc Perhaps because screens have endless distractions whereas textbooks do not. Personally, I prefer to read a paper book any day. It feels infinitely softer on my eyes, and it's just more pleasant of an experience to me for whatever reason. ------ Amygaz Overall I would take that study very lightly. They basically took a cohort of student that did not have to read anything meaningful until then. In highschool they may have had some text and some work to do on a laptop, but the bulk of it was paper based. They were also trained to highlight sentences instead of taking meaningful notes. Train the next generation to mostly use digital and that small study will become a time capsule, which would incidentally be a better outcome that what it is now, i.e. an attempt to generalize a conclusion based on an oversimplistic experimental setup. ------ hmwhy I was skeptical about the claim in the title of the article to begin with. Point three and four in the article makes me even more uncomfrotable (for reasons that others have explained much better), and the article leaves _a lot_ to be desired. A quick Google Scholar of "difference between screen and print in learning" gave me two results that immediately stand out. The first article[1] (2013, n = 72, 10th grade students, reading comprehension of texts between 1400-2000 words, print vs. PDF on computer screens) that the BI article seems to corroborate. The second article[2] (2013, n = 538, university students, textbooks that are learning material for exams, print vs. digital but device type and format available from the abstract) suggests that there is no statistically significant difference between print and screen. Digging deeper, I found another one[3] article (2015, review/opinion based on existing research), which questions format, design, country and culture amongst other things—some of which have already been questioned in the comments. The first thing that I find disturbing aboutthis article is that I'm not even trained in the field of education and I could find a lot of information in the literature that seems to suggest that the BI article is highgly opinionated and underpowered. The second thing that I find disturbing is that the authors of the paper in question themselves wrote that BI article and make sensational assertions with such confidence that is, in my opinion, obviosuly flawed. It's already hard to forgive a reporter sensationalising research results that are not the whole picture, for the authors themselves to do it seems so casually and carelessly seems to be a step up and is, unfortunately, increasingly popular. [1] [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0883035512...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0883035512001127) [2] [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360131512...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360131512002953) [3] [https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01207678](https://hal.archives- ouvertes.fr/hal-01207678) ------ dingo_bat I can attest to this. I need big pages that I can lay flat on my desk and scribble on with a pencil. Kindle or an LCD screen just doesn't cut it for academic reading. ------ hackermailman I like print books with a website offering errata, and some minimalist recorded lectures on the material, like Gilbert Strang writing on a blackboard to further give insight to the book's material. Even with pdf-tools in emacs, navigating a PDF is still too much wasted time compared to flipping pages plus I have to stare at a screen for hours. The SICP texinfo copy I read being an exception where it was the only time I preferred the digital copy to print. ------ sus_007 As a student of Science/Mathematics, I often make the most out of my E-books by writing out the exercises/problems/principles on my notebook and repeating the process (mostly for the Mathematics). I think the flexibility that E-books offer regarding it's digital existence is the pillar of my bias towards eBooks. ------ znpy Yeah, no shit. On one hand you have large screens that emit a huge amount of light, posing a huge strain on eyes. On the other hand you have tiny screens, too tiny to display anything remotely useful, in black and white, and slow to update. Ebooks for learning will not take off completely until we'll have larger, faster, cheaper e-ink displays. ~~~ posterboy ... or rather until people are desperate enough to take advantage of the interactive medium. A comparison books and thei e-equivalents without taking advantage of the different mediua is actuallyleaving me flabbergasting for the right word. ------ thinkMOAR Nothing about not being able to run other apps/multitask with a book? When i read a book, i cannot turn to page 123 to see who is online or get notifications that i received an email. Less distractions, more focused, more effectiveness; doesn't really require a study in my opinion. ------ cyberpunk0 No students learn from visuals, demonstrations, examples, comparisons, interactive content. Shoving a students head into a dry, dense volume of endlessly tasteless and monotonous text is the problem we've always had, screens or not ------ musashizak Emotion and memory are connected. And emotion is connected with perception and pleausure of senses. All this connections was knows from many centuries in the yoga and meditation practice ------ Buldak It's interesting that students thought their comprehension was better when reading from screens, rather than paper, when in fact the opposite was the case. What might explain that mistaken perception? ------ d--b It'd be interesting to go into more details: \- what if it's e-ink? \- what if it's paginantes rather than scrolled? \- what if there are multiple screens? \- what if it's a very large screen? Etc. There must à factor that matters most than others ~~~ jlengrand What if there isn't any other app (Whatsapp, Slack, Facebook, ...) running next to it :) ------ ejanus But do we need research or study to confirm this? We are community of lifelong learners so we should know better. ~~~ kremlin Yes, even if you Intuit something or know it from experience, it's valuable to have thus level of certainty through a carefully conducted study. Convincing someone your intuition is true is a lot harder than pointing to the research ------ ausjke maybe the screen is secondary, on a computer it is way too easy to get distracted especially for young learners comparing to a real paper-format book? our brain might adapt to searching instead of deep-thinking from now on, using all abstracted data sets from big-data-somewhere, which also means, we will lose control and the world will be taken over by AI instead ------ eradicatethots Ok, suppose this is true, why? It sounds like such nonsense to me, there must be confounders	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Linux-insides: Introduction to system calls - 0xAX https://github.com/0xAX/linux-insides/blob/master/SysCall/syscall-1.md ====== vezzy-fnord See also LWN's "Anatomy of a system call": [https://lwn.net/Articles/604287/](https://lwn.net/Articles/604287/) ------ fintler Are you planning to put out a Kindle version of this when it's done? I'd pay for it. ~~~ AaronO You can already download the MOBI from the book's GitBook page: [https://www.gitbook.com/book/0xax/linux- insides/details](https://www.gitbook.com/book/0xax/linux-insides/details) :) ------ craneca0 Another introductory resource: [https://sysdig.com/fascinating-world-linux- system-calls/](https://sysdig.com/fascinating-world-linux-system-calls/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Peter Thiel’s CS183: Startup - Class 2 Notes - huetsch http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/20582845717/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-2-notes-essay ====== bannerts Here is a link to his notes from the first lecture in case if anyone is interested: <http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/20400301508/cs183class1> ------ karpathy I'm auditing the class as well and I like it quite a lot. Make sure to not get TLDR discouraged and at least scroll all the way down for the (very amusing) video that was played in class. Direct link: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6IQ_FOCE6I&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6IQ_FOCE6I&feature=player_embedded) from 2007 but still semi-relevant :) ------ jcc80 Being in my early 30s, it's pretty funny to think about someone in college today taking notes about the late 90s. It doesn't make me feel old...yet. ------ coopdog Loved this. As someone who was into tech but oblivious to the tech scene in the 90's this was incredibly useful, will read as many as you write! (anyone know if there are videos of the lectures available?) ~~~ keithgibson I second this. Audio recording or podcast will suffice in the absence of video. ------ yanowitz From the notes: "by late 1998, the NASDAQ was at about 1400—just 400 points higher than it was in August ’95. " A 40% increase in a stock index in ~3 years is an amazingly huge bull market and the sense of frothiness was everywhere at the time. In general, telescoping the "bubble" to 18 months doesn't make sense to me -- the craziness really started with the Netscape IPO. But it was a hockey stick and so those 28 months of the curve look particularly crazy. ------ Create College dropout advocate Peter Thiel to teach course at Stanford [http://www.mercurynews.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/pr...](http://www.mercurynews.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?articleId=20158638&siteId=568) ~~~ pgbovine I know you're being snarky, but I really don't see the contradiction. These students haven't graduated yet, so they can still drop out if they're inspired by his class. ~~~ grogs Moreover, he likely advocates/d dropping out because college courses are not useful in the industry... By teaching himself, he can change/influence that. ------ villagefool Sorry for the ignorance, but who is Nolan that is listed as the second lecturer of the course? (tried Googling) ------ mukaiji I'm in that class. The stories about his awesomeness are all true. ~~~ dakrisht Wish they would offer this course on iTunes U like Hegarty's CS193P. ~~~ mukaiji Unfortunately, the class is not recorded :( ------ rshe good read, thanks for posting these notes! ------ chrismealy No girls! "Facebook Backer Wishes Women Couldn’t Vote" <http://gawker.com/5231390/> ~~~ patricklynch If you have any legitimate criticisms of Peter Thiel, or the essay mentioned in that gawker article ( [http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter- thiel/the-educa...](http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/the- education-of-a-libertarian/) ), please consider elaborating on them in a new post. I'm sure many here would be interested. But linking to gawker in the comments of an unrelated story probably isn't the best way to express your concerns. ~~~ chrismealy My legitimate criticism of Thiel is that he's a sexist creep. ~~~ patricklynch That's not what I meant by legitimate criticism. Go write a compelling, well-cited account of all the things he's done to upset you or--even better--all the ways he's discriminated against women. Publish it somewhere. On a blog, in a municipal paper, on TechCrunch, whatever. If you can actually write that story, do it. Make it good enough that people care.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A Giant Asteroid of Gold Won’t Make Us Richer - pseudolus https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-07-08/asteroid-16-psyche-and-all-that-gold-won-t-make-earth-richer ====== Animats Hey, at least we could fix soldering. 80% gold, 20% tin is the best solder.[1] Very strong, no whisker growth. Often used inside ICs, and for some avionics boards. [1] [https://www.palomartechnologies.com/blog/why-gold-tin-is- the...](https://www.palomartechnologies.com/blog/why-gold-tin-is-the-best- solder-alloy) ~~~ imtringued I'm sure we could come up with a lot of use cases for abundant gold. The idea that cost effectively extracting resources from space does not make humanity richer is incredibly backwards. Extracting more resources, using those resources more efficiently and offering more services is absolutely necessary to increase our economic productivity and therefore grow our economy. ~~~ paulryanrogers Only if it's a net gain in resources. There is currently a massive cost in resources and pollution for everything put into, or retrieved from, space. Hopefully that will change, though I doubt it'll ever reach 1-to-1. ~~~ jacobush It has potential to go off the charts. ~~~ paulryanrogers Does it really though? I'm not a physicist yet without something like fusion as a miniaturized propellant I don't see how it can ever be wiser to mine asteroids than try to live more sustainably on Earth first. ~~~ ben_w Space economics is… counterintuitive. A while ago I read a blog ranting about how pointless it was to mine He3 from the moon for fusion. A brief summary: * We don’t have fusion reactors * If we did, we could mine fuel from the gas giants’ atmospheres * He3 is so poorly concentrated in the Lunar regolith that the easy way to extract it also produces high purity silicon and oxygen * Turning that silicon into ingots and firing them at the Earth, you can generate more power from electromagnetically decelerating them then you would get from the fusion of the helium, and this is a perfectly sensible way to generate power because of the relative depth of the Earth and Moon gravity wells * You can then burn the silicon instead of coal, and this is absolutely fine because the ash is sand instead of a greenhouse gas. You can also bring oxygen from the Moon to burn it with so you won’t run out of oxygen on Earth to breathe. Unfortunately I can’t find the post whenever I’ve tried searching for it. ------ pseudolus I think the author is overlooking the environmental aspect of mining asteroids for minerals. Currently huge levels of environmental damage are caused by mining for gold, platinum and other metals. To the extent that these mining activities can be moved "off earth" our planet's environment would benefit enormously. In this regard, a giant asteroid of gold would make us richer. ~~~ clhodapp Maybe. Putting things into space creates a lot of air pollution. ~~~ makerofspoons You could launch 3 Big Falcon Rockets per day for a year and only then equal the emissions for all the air traffic at Heathrow that occurs in a month: [https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/8g0iaj/bfr_ai...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/8g0iaj/bfr_air_pollution/dz6uz6q?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x) There are bigger fish to fry in terms of the environment. ~~~ jankotek Those launches would only put a few thousand tons on orbit, that is nothing for mining operation. ~~~ headcanon Getting large-scale mining operations in space, or any kind of industrial base for that matter, would require us to start fabricating things in space. Getting something in orbit will always be expensive and prohibitive, even when space elevators are built, so there will be enough incentive to start building things in space. ~~~ moneytide1 I've wondered how interstellar smelting would work. There would need to be centripetal force on the foundry station to keep metals flowing. Nearby ice could provide hydrogen and oxygen for propulsion and even heat for steam turbine electricity for the plant. Certainly there would be uranium present as well so fission would be an option, albeit more complicated. Four/eight year military service spent policing/polluting the world could be replaced by short "tours" in asteroid belt operations. The key to all of this would be constant launches and flow of material/labor, ideally with international cooperation. The high frequency of launches in itself is a safety feature - stranded crews would be able to expect fly-bys. It would be expensive at first because we would essentially be ejecting many resources away from the planet. But the promise of heavy-industry eventually zoned outside of our natural atmosphere could be the [non-classical] incentive. ~~~ JoeAltmaier Rotation might be done with magnetic fields instead of ejecting ionized gas (water etc). And dirty fission power is very practical in space, where the inverse-square law can make it quite harmless. ~~~ moneytide1 Would the magnetic field be provided by an auxiliary station adjacent to the rotating foundry? Or could the structure propel it's own smelting vats somehow via the field on arms attached to a central bearing? It would seem more efficient with a field rather than constantly ejecting usable material. How is the inverse squared law applied to space fission? Ease of cooling? ~~~ ben_w > How is the inverse squared law applied to space fission? Ease of cooling? If you double the distance, the radiation hazard reduces by a factor of four. This is why the Sun — an unshielded fusion reactor — hasn’t already killed everyone. ------ mcv While the asteroid will of course never be worth the quintillions it's worth on paper, there's no doubt it will be worth something. Otherwise, why are people still spending money to dig up gold out of the earth? But gold isn't that interesting. The only reason it's valued the way it is, is because everybody has agreed it's valuable. But there are many other rare metals and minerals we can mine from asteroids that would be immensely useful. In smartphones and other electronics, for example. At the moment, rare earth elements are often mined in terrible destructive ways, sometimes under atrocious circumstances. Fairphone is the one phone company that's trying to do something about it, but on their own, they're not going to have a lot of impact. Off-world mining would allow us to leave our Earth intact while still enjoying the smartphones and other electronics that these materials enable. ~~~ DonHopkins What's much more valuable than the gold is the infrastructure required to bring that gold back to earth. Harvesting sand and helium from space might be more valuable than gold. ~~~ tshannon The sand comment had me perplexed, until I did some googling: [https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces- global-...](https://www.npr.org/2017/07/21/538472671/world-faces-global-sand- shortage) ~~~ DonHopkins Apparently desert sand is no good for making concrete, because it's been smoothed and rounded by the wind. I'm guessing moon sand wouldn't have such a problem. Although you'd have to solve the problem of re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere. How practical are space elevators? ------ scotty79 > The metal would have various industrial applications and make nice jewelry > and dental fillings, but it wouldn’t spark a new industrial revolution, or > dramatically bring down the cost of goods and services, or in general make > human life much better or more comfortable. There would be many new industrial aplications for gold alloys. I think abundance of gold could spark mini industrial revolution. ~~~ cogman10 Seems a pretty big assumption. We have an abundance of silicon, that hasn't sparked any sort of revolution around silicon. Gold has some nice properties, but I don't think it is a wonder metal. ~~~ klodolph > We have an abundance of silicon, that hasn't sparked any sort of revolution > around silicon. ...But it has? Think of all the things we make out of silicon and silicon compounds. Buildings, glass, countertops, tools, computers, etc... If silicon were rarer we would surely not be making buildings and windows out of silicon compounds! Some of these do not have easy replacements. You can make buildings without silicon (many are made without) but without silicon we would have a hard time coming up with something like glass. Glass fueled a lot of our scientific revolutions, giving us glassware for chemistry, optics for microscopes and telescopes, etc. Who can know how long it might have taken for us to discover the theory of gravity, cell theory, germ theory, or large chunks of chemistry without glass. ~~~ perl4ever Another case in point, maybe a better parallel, is aluminum. Once it was more precious than gold and used in similar applications to gold and platinum. Then technology was developed to produce it more easily, and we started making things like wheels and then entire vehicles out of it. So we already have the precedent of a precious metal becoming an industrial one, although I don't mean to suggest gold alloys would be good for the same applications due to its density. ~~~ cogman10 The strength to weight ratio of aluminum was known long before we could mass produce it. For example, Titanium is superior to aluminum in most weight/strength applications. If we could mass produce it, we'd not use aluminum anymore. Carbon fiber is even better than Titanium. Again, if it were mass producible, we'd use it for everything. I can point to materials that, if they were cheaper, we'd make everything out of them. That's because we've researched these materials and know that they have potential applications. Their availability hasn't been a factor in the research, not really. Gold, AFAIK, doesn't have those same sorts of analogous usages. It doesn't have a "But if it were cheaper" sort of application. Maybe some electronics or nano-scale applications might benefit from it, but I wouldn't think it would be excluded from that research since you are talking about a tiny amount per component (after all, we still use gold to plate electronic leads today). ~~~ dredmorbius Titanium is strong but brittle, and carbon fibre (or the epoxy which bonds it) has problems at high temperatures. Even aluminium has challenges compared to steel of fatigue under stress or tension, being attacked by certain substances (especially mercury), of a lower melting point, and of bimetallic corrosion (when paired with copper wire in electrical applications: don't do that). Abundance matters (iron, steel), ore processing (electricity and baauxite), but so too do material properties. ------ timemct Bringing down precious metals to Earth isn't the main point of developing space mining tech, e.g. mining a golden asteroid. The mined materials would be useful for bootstrapping other space based projects. With the right mining tech in place, it would be better to build anything that's going to be strictly used in space, well, in space. Earth's gravity well is much less of a cost factor if you don't have to send up manufactured items. ~~~ mark_l_watson Yes indeed. I can’t help from thinking about the Belters in the sci-fi show The Expanse. ------ radford-neal The article's reasoning is mistaken. Nobody knows whether or not reducing the price of gold to $1/ounce would make us much richer or not - because nobody is currently spending serious time thinking of what one could do if gold cost $1/ounce. ------ moneytide1 We should be more concerned with platinum-group elements on asteroids (ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, osmium, iridium, platinum). We've had to allocate agile scientific minds to reduce the use of expensive platinum-group metals in fuel cells in order to make them cost effective: [https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2018-12-scientist...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2018-12-scientists- maximize-effectiveness-platinum-fuel.amp) ------ scythe There’s loads of palladium, molybdenum and ruthenium in asteroids. Gold is much rarer. (Even-numbered elements are more common than odd-numbered elements on a celestial scale.) Pd, Ru and Mo are very useful in chemistry and industry — alloys containing less than 1% Mo go for a premium due to their improved durability. Pd is the _king_ of catalysts. Among other things, it’s key to fuel cells and catalytic converters. Ru is a little less interesting, but it does improve (even more than normal) corrosion resistance in Ti and support extremely-high-temperature nickel superalloys, as might be used for e.g. exploring Venus. ------ beefield Just wondering which central bank is the first to conclude that it actually is useless and stupid to keep gold reserves and decides to dump their gold to the market first. After which, obviously, we see a crash in gold price rarely seen in the world history. And actually start doing something useful with the unique yellow metal that we collectively have decided that is better to be hidden and not used... ~~~ Animats There was talk of that in the early 2000s. There's a lobby against that, the "World Gold Council". ------ JoeAltmaier Never mind what it's all worth. How can we get it where we can use it? We're talking billions of miles away, with astonishing temperature variations and nearly pure vacuum. Spare parts are months/years away. Then, it takes tremendous energy to mine/smelt. And tremendous pressures. How do you grapple with an asteroid in weightless conditions, to apply a drill to the surface? What do you hold onto? How do you generate the torque to turn the drill? Not from some kW power source such as used in existing satellites and probes. We're talking MW/GW power sources needed. Then, drilling produces dust/grit by the ton. Where will it go? Just blow it away? There's no atmosphere to vent dust. It'll all just cling, hover and generally be in the way. Building up continuously as you drill. There are 1000 such problems to be solved before we ever see the first ounce of gold (or whatever) from an asteroid. ~~~ aeternus Interestingly, this is the mechanism by which the Astroid may actually make all of us richer. It will require inventions and new technologies to successfully mine the asteroid, and those will give society access to vast new resources. ------ JumpCrisscross Hmm, what is an element it found in vast quantities in accessible asteroids _would_ spawn a fundamental transformation? Platinum group metals? Uranium? Phorphorus? Rare earths? ~~~ wongarsu Both silver and gold would be pretty good candidates for unlocking some great upgrades to both industrial and everyday items (silver is the most conductive metal, gold is an excellent conductor that's virtually rust free). Lithium and cobalt are a major cost for Li-Ion batteries, tanking their price could transform the world with cheap(er) energy storage. ~~~ cogman10 Gold is an OK conductor, but aluminum is nearly as good while being much lighter. Corrosion isn't really a problem for it either. (Aluminum corrodes very quickly, but that doesn't impact it's conductivity or strength) ~~~ scentoni Aluminum does have safety issues in household wiring: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_building_wiring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_building_wiring) ------ phkahler Best way to use asteroid resources: crash them into Mars now, while there is no hazard to humans. Then when people go there they'll have lots or useful raw material near the surface. ;-) ~~~ jacobush Hey, and the moon! The moon has lower gravity and we can more easily go pick it up there ------ leib Surely lowering the price of precious material will make everyone better off, they'll just stay the same relative to each other? ~~~ dragonwriter > Surely lowering the price of precious material will make everyone better > off, they'll just stay the same relative to each other? They won't stay the same relative to each other if anyone's current wealth is more related to the scarcity of the precious material in question than anyone else, which is guaranteed to be the case for any precious material. ~~~ tomatotomato37 That only really applies to prestige uses; to go with the De Beer analogy a 500 carat "jewel" diamond goes for $50 million, yet some researcher needing an artificial diamond optic lens the size of a dinner plate can get one made for just a couple million. ~~~ dragonwriter That's a special effect of the diamond marketplace where diamonds aren't really “precious materials” but _authenticatable natural_ diamonds are precious _collectibles_. (That is, it is the provenance and not the material that is precious.). But the dynamics are the same so long as the supply glut is in things interchangeable with what is precious (e.g., diamonds that, down to the De Beers microetching, are indistinguishable from the ones that people place value on.) ------ woodandsteel This has some good explanations of basic economics. However, the real importance of mining asteroids is that it would make it possible to build colonies in space that could potentially hold far more than the present population of Earth. ~~~ jbattle Gold is quite dense, I wonder if you could use this asteroid to build shielding for long-term habitats. I imagine you'd still need something stronger to provide the structural elements, but for managing radiation aboard space stations this gold might be quite useful ~~~ dredmorbius Bulk rock or regolith is vastly more abundant and works well. See O'Neill's original designs. ------ mc32 How would this get divvied up? Someone corrals this thing, tows it into some kind of earth orbit, then auctions it off by the ton. How do they get it to the customer? Re-entry vehicle or something else like shielding ton ingots in special thermal tiles and have it crash into deserts somewhere? Imagine if copper wire were replaced with cheaper gold wire? ~~~ paxys Hilarious (and a bit scary) to think that in the near future a random company could haul a massive gold asteroid to Earth and completely destroy the global economy. ~~~ pitaj Why would it destroy the economy? ~~~ npongratz Probably similar to how the Spanish conquistador's precious metals haul from the New World decimated the economy of Spain: massive supply/demand imbalance. ~~~ RaptorJ A better analogy would be if they towed back an asteroid full of $100 bills. ~~~ perl4ever "Now if they find an asteroid that is made out of Bitcoin, that will be economically significant." -Matt Levine ------ colechristensen The author is missing the point that many expensive things are expensive because they are rare AND useful. The wealth comes from prices going down for useful things and new things becoming possible as a result of the lowered costs. How much of battery costs are the metals? What about rare earths used in electronics? What compromises are made to save costs? ------ fitzroy Clearly the author has never had to arm a population with glitterguns against an impending Cyberman attack. ------ LinuxBender Learning how to mine asteroids could increase the likelihood that we would have the technology to push dangerous asteroids out of earths path. ~~~ melling It will likely increase technology on many levels. The technical challenges and competition will change everything. Maybe some scientific platforms could hitch a ride at a heavily discounted price, for example? ~~~ LinuxBender Agreed. I could imagine Darpa funding projects around this for defense and scientific goals. ------ headcanon This would have very interesting market dynamics that the article touches on a little bit. In order to actually make use of the gold, you have to build some sort of industrial base in orbit. So while the total pool of gold within humanity's grasp would increase substantially, the availability would not necessarily increase in the same way. If I buy gold in a commodities market, it is kept in a holding area and rarely moved, but I can for a fee have that gold shipped to me if I really wanted to. Since there is not a substantial price difference in shipping gold to one place vs another on Earth (within the same order of magnitude at least), it doesn't really matter "who" I buy the gold from, so for purely terrestrial markets, gold is gold. But space-based gold would be much more expensive to ship back to Earth, even if gravity is generally on our side in that case, since you are subsidizing the infrastructure required to make that happen. And this probably wouldn't happen that much anyway, since the space-based gold would likely be kept in space to build more space-based infrastructure. So would that create 2 different prices for gold? Or would space-based gold be much cheaper than terrestrial gold, offset by some coefficient that would be its relative movement cost between realms? I am by no means an economics expert, I'm just musing. I believe I'm essentially talking about arbitrage, but need to refresh my memory on this. ~~~ dmurray There are already different prices for gold in Zurich, London, New York, Tokyo and Hong Kong, the five main locations where gold is traded electronically. There are brokers who will arrange the trade for you to buy gold in one and sell in the other, at the current "loco swap" price. If that price moves further from zero than the cost of insuring and transporting gold bars with a company like Brinks, then someone does step in and complete the arbitrage. If I remember right, the prices don't typically move more than about a dollar an ounce from zero, except for Tokyo where the purity rules are different so there is an extra step involved in melting down the bars and getting them restamped. If there was some demand for holding gold in space, I'd expect roughly the same economics to apply. ------ drtillberg Ok, so the PhDs at Bloomberg tell their readership not to fund this boondoggle of a space adventure, but instead to ... buy up stock certificates with debt instruments or some such .... But Wall Street and the Fed (Bloomberg's audience) basically fund every moonshot these days (directly or indirectly) and either they or Congress get into an asteroid race, spends millions/billions/trillions of dollars but fail to recover any more marketable quantities of physical gold for Earth's surface than would an expedition to the center of the Earth (where there's also gold!) ... and instead sell certificates representing ownership shares of the asteroid, which initially trade at pairity with physical Earth-surface metal, but as it becomes clearer that this is an IOU nothing printed based on the most optimistic projections of what is contained in the space rock (and then there are the competing claims of multiple expeditions!), the paper declines precipitously in value and once again demonstrates that economic theory is fine and good, but unmoored from the discipline provided by tangible backing of gold, oil, or whatever, a system of currency and credit like ours predicably generates worthless pieces of paper from huge misallocations of resources and waste. ~~~ MRD85 How could someone sell shares in an asteroid? Wouldn't it be shares in a mining operation? If another country or business finds a way to mine that asteroid then they won't care about your paper claiming ownership. ------ fxj It is quite expensive to send material to an orbit around earth. A quick search says $22.000 per kilo. The price of gold per kilo is about $45.000. So wouldnt it make more sense to keep the gold in the orbit and use it to build things in space? Also the potential energy of the gold has to go somewhere when it enters the earth's atmosphere resulting in additional warming. ~~~ cma > Also the potential energy of the gold has to go somewhere when it enters the > earth's atmosphere resulting in additional warming. That would get quickly radiated away. There would be some tiny increase if you had a sustained amount of it constantly coming in. ~~~ fxj Why should it be quickly radiated away? What makes the heat different from the energy that is already stored in the atmosphere? In total it would be the energy of a large asteroid being smashed on earth. (energy conservation) ------ kristianp According to wikipedia, it's compsition is mostly Iron and Nickel. Gold would only be a trace. Iron and Nickel at 1/10th the current cost would have a big economic impact. Lower prices for resources would make us richer in spending power. An asteroid miner, just like a Bhp or Mincore, would have to take into account the effect on market prices of a large new supply. Mass of (2.41±0.32)×10^19 kg ~~~ aaronblohowiak A ton of iron scrap is about $160, if my math is right. A ton of iron ore is $70. I do not believe that reducing that price to 1/10th of present would be huge — most of the cost now IIUC is in processing. ------ magicnubs > Rejoice, people of Earth! News outlets are reporting that NASA is planning > to visit an asteroid made of gold and other precious metals! At current > prices, the minerals contained in asteroid 16 Psyche are said to be worth > $700 quintillion -- enough to give everyone on the planet $93 billion. We’re > all going to be richer than Jeff Bezos! No one ever thought it was going to work this way. ~~~ umvi > enough to give everyone on the planet $93 billion In the words of Syndrome: "When everyone's super... no one will be" Poverty is relative wealth, so if everyone's wealth increased by the same amount, the poverty line would be exactly the same. If you gave everyone on earth 1kg of gold simultaneously, it would actually make the poor poorer since it would devalue any of their current golden possessions to near zero. ~~~ ggggtez >it would actually make the poor poorer Nope. This is entirely wrong. Consider: You have $100. I have $1000. We both get +$50 worth of gold. So you have $150 and I have $1050. You increased your welth by 50%, but I only increased my wealth by 5%. So yes, if you had no money, you actually _did_ earn purchasing power. Let's consider another example: The poor person probably has $0 invested in gold. So if anything, it hurts people in the middle class, who might have let's say 5% of their wealth in gold, which is suddenly worthless. So the poor person has actually increased their buying power compared to the middle class, and the rich (who probably have so much money in real-estate and stocks that any gold investment is minuscule) are unaffected. ~~~ jbattle Ah, but who would pay you $50 for that gold? ------ mrfusion I’m not sure why it’s focusing on gold. It’s a bit of a straw man argument using gold to argue against astroid mining. There are plenty of precious metals that have abundant industrial uses. ------ aussieguy1234 The world is much better off without gold mining on earth. Not just for the environment but for the exploited miners as well, including children. The Children Risking Their Lives In Underwater Gold Mines ... [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P1L_pxYZVwE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P1L_pxYZVwE) ------ 8bitsrule My guess is that few of us will live to see the evidence-based spreadsheet on this fictional venture. No doubt it would prove to be 'gold' to several earth- based corporations ... if only the _desire_ could be _whipped up_ to get the public to fall for it. ------ mankeysee They'd probably keep it a secret if they manage to succeed (and slowly dole it out as per need and sell it at high present costs); of course unless a rival manages to do so as well and threatens "publicizing" the fact. edit: The article does seem to cover this situation kind of. ------ melq How much metal will they realistically be able to bring back from an asteroid? I don't know anything about this but it seems improbable that we'd go from being able to bring home a few moon rocks right to 700 quintillion dollars worth of gold. ~~~ perl4ever Quote: "There is a lot of gold right here on Earth that has not been dug up! Because it is pretty deep underground or whatever. The relevant supply of gold is the stuff that can be extracted economically, not just the stuff that exists. The same thing is even more true hundreds of millions of miles away in outer space. You cannot just send a big dump truck to Psyche 16, shovel some loose gold nuggets into it, and drive it back to your house." ------ westurner > _this example shows that real wealth doesn’t actually come from golden > hoards. It comes from the productive activities of human beings creating > things that other human beings desire._ Value, Price, and Wealth ~~~ dredmorbius ??? I'd suggest a different triad: cost, price, value. [https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/48rd02/cost_va...](https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/48rd02/cost_value_price_money_and_emergy_developing/) ~~~ westurner Good call. I don't know where I was going with that. Cost, price, value, and wealth. Are there better examples for illustrating the differences between these kind of distinct terms? Less convertible collectibles like coins and baseball cards (that require energy for exchange) have (over time t): costs of production, marketing, and distribution; retail sales price; market price; and 'value' which is abstract relative (opportunity cost in terms of fiat currency (which is somehow distinct from price at time t (possibly due to 'speculative information'))) Wealth comes from relationships, margins between costs and prices, long term planning, […] ~~~ dredmorbius _Are there better examples for illustrating the differences between these kind of distinct terms?_ For concepts as intrinsically fundamental to economics as these are, the agreement and understanding of what they are, even amomg economists, is surprisingly poor. It's not even clear whether or not "wealth" refers to a flow or stock -- Adam Smith uses the term both ways. And much contemporary mainstream 'wealth creation" discussion addresses _accounting profit_ rather than _economic wealth_. Or broader terms such aas _ecological wealth_ (or natural capital). There's some progress, and Steve Keen has been synthesizing much of it recently, but the terms fare poorly. A key issue is that "price‘ and "exchange value" are ofteen conflated, creating confusiin with use/ownership value. Addressing your terms, "cost" and "price", and typically "value", indicate some metric of _exchange_ or _opportunity cost_ (or benefit). Whilst "wealth", as typically used, tends to relate to some _store_ or _accumulation_. In electrical terms (a potentially, so to speak, useful analogue) the difference between voltage and charge, with current representing some other property, possibly material flows of goods or energy. The whole question of _media for exchange_ (currency, and the like), and _durable forms of financial wealth_ (land, art, collectibles) is another interesting one, with discussionnby Ricardo and Jevons quite interesting -- both useful and flawed. And don't even get me started on the near total discounting of accumulated natural capital, say, the 100-300 million year factor of time embodied in fossil fuels. The reasons and rationales for excluding that being fascinating (Ricardo, Tolstoy, Gray, Hotelling, Boulding, Soddy, Georgescu-Roegen, Daly, Keen). You are correct that all value (and hence wealth) is relative, and hence relational. TL;DR: Not that I'm aware. ------ yayitswei Reminds me of pg's essay on wealth: [http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html](http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html) ------ sixtypoundhound Water and industrial raw materials at the top of the gravity well, on the other hand.... would be a massive win.... ------ neonate [http://archive.is/s74k0](http://archive.is/s74k0) ------ sgt101 yus, but a lakeful of helium would. ------ HocusLocus But things would shore get purdy!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Beg HN: The Open Source Student Information System (SIS) - 7mediaws https://www.bountysource.com/fundraisers/455-edutrac ====== 7mediaws There is some skepticism around this project, but I strongly believe that the education community needs an open source student information system of this magnitude. It's feature set is greatly influenced by Ellucian's (formerly Datatel) product called Colleague. It is more like a school management system than an SIS, but it is my hope that it will grow into a full blown ERP.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Rbenv, an unobtrusive rvm replacement - vamsee https://github.com/sstephenson/rbenv ====== chc I'm having trouble imagining who this is for, at least in the context of an RVM replacement. The point of RVM is convenience. It's like RVM, only without most of the convenience (gemsets, installing standard versions and migrating between versions, primarily). If I wanted to manually manage all my Rubies, I wouldn't be using RVM. I like the sentiment of being less of a hack than RVM, but I just don't see much use for this particular set of functions ~~~ sstephenson The main use case is for specifying per-application Ruby version dependencies. For example, at 37signals, most of our apps run on REE, but our new apps run on 1.9.x, and we're gradually moving everything to 1.9. When you have multiple people working on multiple apps every day, it's essential that this dependency information is checked into version control. Even more so when certain branches of an app may depend on different versions. Both rvm and rbenv allow you to specify per-application dependencies (rvm with .rvmrc files, rbenv with .rbenv-version files). The difference is that rbenv does it in a much simpler, less invasive way. ------ sstephenson An official release with a web site and improved installation process should be out next week. If you're wondering "why would I use this instead of rvm?" be sure to read the readme: <https://github.com/sstephenson/rbenv#readme> ~~~ yariang I looked at RVM a few weeks back while trying to set up a Rails app and was so frustrated I went outside and kicked a kitty. I am glad to see a project that should restore some of my sanity. Good work. ~~~ kaylarose What was so frustrating about RVM? ~~~ yariang I just could not get it to work. I follow several instruction pages carefully. I was initially trying to follow: [http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-rails-tutorial- book#se...](http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-rails-tutorial- book#sec:install_ruby) I kept getting issues with versions. I should have specified that, I do not necessarily think it is a bad product, but it did frustrate me a lot when trying to set it up. I'm sure it has saved a lot of developers time, but I speak for myself and myself alone, and the cost-benefit for me was way off. ------ cwjohnston Looks interesting. It's always been pretty amazing to me that a system like RVM remains so popular when it depends on overriding the operation of basic commands like 'cd'. ~~~ mhansen That's the main reason I'm not using RVM. I _depend_ on `cd` to work, every time, rock solid, especially when my system is unstable. I can't risk having a dependency or bug in their `cd` script breaking my most commonly used shell command. ~~~ hadis So then what did you use on your development machine to test your ruby apps with till now? What did you use if not RVM? I am happy that RVM exists and made my life as ruby developer much easier even if it overrides 'cd'. Also to note i never had problems with RVM. Your main reason not using RVM is poor, as if there were more options out there till now. ~~~ boz666 .bash_profile? How hard is that? ruby==ruby 1.8.7 ruby9==ruby 1.9.2 jruby== jruby 1.6 jruby5==jruby 1.5 Yeah, real tough. ------ kaylarose Besides the whole `cd` override thing, I am curious why so many people are "confused" or have problems with RVM? (This is a genuine question. I've never had problems with RVM, but obviously others have, so I am curious) ------ swatermasysk I love the simplicity of Rbenv. I also love the "it's never good enough" mentality. I have not had any issues with RVM, but that doesn't mean people like Sam shouldn't try to build something better. ~~~ clupprich I think this quite reflects the whole evolution theory - something quite good is replaced by something a little bit better, which is again replaced by something a bit better, and so on, and so on, and so on. ~~~ akmiller It more so to me reflects the knee-jerk reaction of many in the Ruby community to jump to newer projects simply because they are newer. I like rvm a lot and use it all the time. I'm sure rbenv is a good solution as well. I think it's a bit premature to say it's an overall better solution. ------ grimen Makes sense, though I'll stick to RVM until I change my mind - RVM floats my boat, haven't had any serios issues and I live in the shell. Bad short-term (community confusion), good long-term (evolution of initial innovation). I'm very neutral here. I got a simple solution for all you distro vs RVM people: People who prefer to use RVM - use RVM, people who prefer to use distro - use distro. Until you have proven that a server that runs distro is 2x more valuable in $ - post on HN and we could review it again. Reminding you of that we don't live in a totally symmetric universe. ------ freedrull Yes RVM is a crazy hack, but that's why I love it! Has anyone actually had problems with RVM overriding 'cd'? Has RVM changed the behavior of 'cd' in a way that was a problem for you? ~~~ telemachos > Has anyone actually had problems with RVM overriding 'cd'? I did, in two different ways. The first time, _cd_ was returning the wrong exit status. (That is, it had become a function and was returning the exit status of its last command, rather than the exit status of the actual _cd_ call. A common gotcha when you override shell built-ins or other commands.) The incorrect exit status caused a number of shell scripts completely unrelated to rvm to break. That made it harder to debug, obviously. The second time I had trouble, TAB autocompletion with _cd_ was broken. At one point, rvm was doing its own autocompletion for cd, although the last time I looked, it no longer does that by default. (Yeah, just checked - that code path is still opt-in by setting rvm_cd_complete_flag=1.) Having said that, both times when I went into #rvm on Freenode to talk to Wayne about it, he could not have been more helpful. Having said _that_ , I still wish that as a design decision, rvm didn't override cd. ------ bonzoesc It would be somewhat cool if ruby-build knew how to look for an rbenv folder to install rubies into, or if rbenv knew how to drive ruby-build to put rubies in the right directory, but otherwise it's pretty nice. ~~~ sstephenson That's a good idea... ruby-build could provide an `rbenv-install` plugin command for rbenv. ~~~ stock_toaster ruby-build seems fairly small. Have you considered just including it inside rbenv's bin directory? That may decrease the friction and improve the 'git checkout rbenv, add path, and get started' workflow. ~~~ telemachos It is fairly small, but I think part of the idea is to decouple rbenv from _how_ or with what tools you build Rubies. (It might make sense, though, for someone to create and maintain a fork that bundles ruby-build and rbenv.) ------ jarin Pretty nice, but I actually do really like having gemsets. It gets me as close to the production environment as possible, plus it makes it really easy to clean up unused gems when I'm done with a project. ~~~ nzadrozny For that, I use Bundler and always install gems to vendor/bundle for maximum isolation and easy cleanup. :~ which bi bi: aliased to bundle install --path vendor/bundle ~~~ hadis but does this not increase the size of your source control repository? ~~~ zszugyi No, just add the directory to .gitignore. ------ uxp For anyone that grew up outside of using a Bourne Shell (bash, sh, etc) like myself, this appears to be compatible with at least the C shell. A welcome relief, in my opinion. ------ bricestacey I just uninstall rvm and install rbenv. It seems to work so far. I'm glad to switch. rvm confused the hell out of me. ------ X4 I upvote this because RVM caused me more pain than salvation. I regret the time wasted for RVM. Thanks for this vamsee! ------ derekprior I appreciate RVM and Wayne offers fantastic, other-worldly support. That said, there's always room for alternatives and I'm intrigued by rbenv. The part that gives me pause is the need to run `rbenv rehash` after installing a ruby (not so bad and possibly fixable if the aforementioned change to ruby-build is made) or after installing a gem that has binaries (I predict I will forget to do this a ton). I could definitely see myself wanting to override `gem` in order to detect binary installations and automatically rehash. At which point, it's not so unobtrusive! Still interested enough to try it out and see if that is as much of a hassle as I think it will be. ------ NARKOZ Is it production ready? RVM is. ~~~ bonzoesc I don't see a pressing need to use RVM in production; when I deploy, I pick a Ruby version and stick with it unless there's a security issue, at which point I pull the updated REE package from Phusion/let Heroku figure it out. Considering the many times I've seen RVM installs fail due to checked-in broken code, I'd hardly call it "production ready" either. ~~~ SpikeGronim I have to use rvm in production because debian/ubuntu install ruby 1.8 and I need 1.9.2 for rails 3. Ruby isn't in the alternatives system (yet - coming soon) so I don't see a better way. ~~~ alrs apt-get install ruby1.9. It's in there. ~~~ sanderjd 1.9.1 is there, 1.9.2 is not. But I still the the better solution is to build from source on each machine, or create a custom 1.9.2 package for the machines you will be using. As other comments have pointed out, RVM is held together with string and duct tape and breaks frequently. I haven't dug into the code from this project, but being more testable and maintainable would be one of the biggest wins they could achieve from my point of view. ~~~ nona I have to contradict you (unless I'm misunderstanding you): the debian package named ruby1.9.1 is actually 1.9.2. The 1.9.1 refers to the ruby ABI. Blame the ruby devs for breaking the ABI in a minor version update (1.9.0 -> 1.9.[12]). ------ metaskills We are software nerds people. It is supposed to be cool to se how others solve problems. It is as simple as that. ------ hadis With RVM you can change the rubygems version for an installed ruby interpreter. Is something like these possible with rbenv too? i use rubygems -v 1.3.6 for ruby-1.8.7 and rubygems -v 1.8.6 for ruby-1.9.2. I remember i had problems using rubygems 1.8.6 with ruby-1.8.7 ~~~ dalyons Really damn handy feature, especially with the compatibility clusterfuck that has been rubygems > 1.3.6 ------ rubyplusplus I've never had any problems with RVM, however with that said I will absolutely check out the code on github and may try this out. ------ revscat This looks promising because it looks like it will work seamlessly with tmux/screen, something rvm struggles with. ~~~ axomhacker What problems did you see using rvm with screen? I use that daily and haven't seen any problems so far. ~~~ revscat I am currently porting a Ruby application over to JRuby, and use tmux (although I am pretty sure screen would behave the same). Let's say you have two rubies installed, ree and jruby. You start out using ree, and are using screen/tmux, and have two screens open. If you switch to JRuby in the first screen, then switch to the second, the changes don't propagate. e.g.: (first screen) $ rvm list rvm rubies => jruby-1.6.3 [ darwin-i386-java ] ree-1.8.7.2001.03 [ x86_64] (second screen) $ rvm list rvm rubies jruby-1.6.3 [ darwin-i386-java ] => ree-1.8.7.2001.03 [ x86_64] It's not a big deal -- you just have to make sure you do the right thing -- but it is unexpected and has burned me a couple of times. It looks like rbenv won't suffer from this problem. ~~~ Gibheer But thats exactly, what I expect from rvm. When i'm in in one projecti want too to use that Ruby with that gelder and not the other Ruby and gemset. So rbvm is not want I want to use with tmux. ~~~ revscat This is in the same project. ------ solid Good to see competition. RVM's "bug tracker" is the IRC channel... ------ iancanderson was this really necessary? i think RVM does a fine job at managing rubies. ------ xkumados rvm is easier to type than rbenv. i know aliases exist but whyyyyy? roarrr	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Team Behind Finnish Success Story Supercell Launches Nordic Startup Fund - dirtyaura http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/04/22/finnish-success-story-supercell-and-investors-launch-nordic-startup-fund/ ====== dirtyaura "... Applifier, which was acquired by a bigger American software tool developer Unity Technologies for an undisclosed sum in March." Unity was founded in Denmark and to my understanding it still has the biggest development team in Denmark. Surely they have offices and likely a corporation entity in US, but saying that Unity is American software tool developer is like saying Sony is American device manufacturer. ~~~ _delirium Yes, to my understanding the SF office is mainly a sales/business office, while engineering/technical work remains based in Copenhagen, with some bits outsourced elsewhere (Ukraine, China, etc.). I believe the main rationale for the SF office is that it's closer to a number of potential clients and investors (and events like GDC), but operations weren't moved there. If anything they seem to be doubling down on Copenhagen as the engineering site, recently moving to a bigger new space in the city center.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
AI vs. Me. WHO.WILL.WIN? - pplonski86 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxloGgn9Fj0&list=PLpSMHMRlawwHAnFltguX1SouT4W2aCbKX ====== zunzun THIS WAS INTERESTING, THANK YOU FOR POSTING IT.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Hillary Clinton Is Wrong About Edward Snowden - morgante http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/hillary-clinton-is-wrong-about-edward-snowden ====== willholloway There was only one candidate in the first Democratic debate that had the courage to say that Snowden should be brought home a hero, because the government was breaking the law, and that was Lincoln Chafee. He didn't equivocate. And he gave one very stupid, but very honest answer to a question on Glass- Steagall. And he is being mocked for it. Wolf Blitzer took the opportunity to kick him when he was down [1] . If you look at Lincon's Twitter feed he was so excited to be on Wolf Blitzer's show, because he thought he was going to be able to talk about his ideas. He was naive, and that makes him a bad politician. But he had interesting ideas he wanted to talk about even if he knew he couldn't win, namely pardoning Snowden, ending drone strikes and the benefits of switching to the metric system. The only legitimate criticism I can level against him is that he didn't assemble the proper campaign staff that would have prepared him for the debate properly. His answer to the Glass-Steagall question was unfortunate, because we did have one candidate that could have brought attention to Snowden, and the cruelty and futility of drone strike warfare. He hasn't tweeted since the Wolf Blitzer bullying episode. An article has been written that he has disgraced the legacy of his father. [2] I think he deserves thanks for bringing some attention [3] to the response a democratic nation should have to heroes like Snowden. [1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExMtNDS5hk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExMtNDS5hk) [2] [http://wpri.com/2015/10/15/john-chafee-loyalists- anguished-o...](http://wpri.com/2015/10/15/john-chafee-loyalists-anguished- over-lincoln-chafees-white-house-run/) [3] [https://www.thenation.com/article/lincoln-chafee-adds-a- prop...](https://www.thenation.com/article/lincoln-chafee-adds-a-proposal-to- the-2016-debate-lets-bring-edward-snowden-home/) ~~~ ScottBurson I was not familiar with Chafee prior to the debate and I liked some of the things he said, but he really did blow the Glass-Steagall question very badly. You don't get to be President by making excuses. He should simply have said "It was a mistake. I did not educate myself properly on the issue before voting, and I regret it." I think everyone would have been fine with that. ------ FBT Why does the United States constitution grant the president the power to grant pardons and reprieves? I'd argue that it's for cases exactly like this one. Where someone indeed broke the law, but did the right thing in doing so. We want people to do what is right, not shake our heads tragically and say that the law is the law, and must be followed blindly even if it means punishing a hero for his heroic deeds. I'd further say that it's the responsibility of the president to use his or her constitutionally granted powers for this purpose, and say that a president that refuses to use the powers of the presidency for the purpose they were intended for is a simply bad at the job of being president. ~~~ rorykoehler Snowden didn't break the law. He uncovered other people breaking the law. If it is illegal to do something (like the NSA surveillance techniques) and that something is done then the rest of the laws surrounding state secrets automatically become devoid. That is the only way a sane working democratic society can function. If it is illegal to uncovered illegality then it sets a precedent that every witness to a crime will have to be tried as a defendant. The Snowden situation is absurd and anyone who says he broke the law is revealing themselves as the enemy of the people and of the country. ~~~ AndrewKemendo _He uncovered other people breaking the law._ Despite an appeals court decision on illegality, because of the way that Congress revamped what was previously Section 215's language, and ended some of the previous programs, it has not been officially taken that what they did was illegal - that is, named as culpable certain groups or individuals that broke stated laws. As a result, under common law and procedures of the courts/congress, technically the only one who has broken a law was Snowden. I'm not arguing right or wrong, I am just say that you are technically wrong under legal statute. ~~~ rorykoehler My comment was more a reflection on how messed up a system is if this is how it works. Morally the law is unjust therefore it can't be right and I'm with MLK on this one: "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." ------ throwaway13337 It's disheartening to read that 53% of Americans agree with Hillary and only 26% do not. It's also surprising that ~81% of Americans polled had an opinion at all. ~~~ blktiger 53% agree that he should stand trial. That's not the same as being convicted. He did break the law, so it stands to reason that he should stand trial. Snowden himself said something similar if I recall, that if he was sure he would stand a _fair_ trial he would return to the US. ~~~ BookmarkSaver Exactly. A guy working in the US intelligence service who fled with stolen information to China then Russia is not someone that should automatically be granted clemency. He should be investigated and tried. He might be the hero everyone here and on reddit imagines he is, or he might just be another shady character in geopolitics. It's frustrating to see people so blindly picking sides or misinterpreting opinions. ~~~ jazzyk >"fled with stolen information to China then Russia" Typical misconception, sad to see it on HN. He did not flee to Russia, he got stuck on his way, because the US revoked his passport. Russia was the only country who could stand up to the US. Few other countries dared to offer him asylum. Unfortunate it had to be Russia, given their civil liberties record, but he HAD NO INTENTION of going there. ~~~ physicistjedi Also he wasn't "with stolen information". He did not keep a copy with him on his way. ------ ck2 The whistler-blower angle has been discussed to death and she knows it is complete BS because whistler-blowers in government have an extremely tragic history. She only takes that position so she seems "tough on crime" like so make democrats are afraid to appear otherwise to the "undecided voters" (whomever those idiots are). Just like why she had an email server in her home (which everyone should have) because her husband knows damn well about the six month limit where any government agency can read your email without a warrant, which is why he set it up in the first place. It's a shame she is the only realistic presidential candidate and the only one out of all on both sides who I'd want picking the next few supreme court judges. Everything else coming out of her is basically going to be whatever she thinks is going to get her elected, just like every other candidate. Oh and she'll be the fourth president residing over our war in Afganistan - certainly we'll "win" any one of these years, or decades and when we finally do leave, certainly it won't revert back to what it was before like Iraq, right? ------ cmrdporcupine More disappointing than Clinton's response is Bernie Sander's middling 'respectable' response: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-greer/bernie-sanders- woul...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-greer/bernie-sanders-would- make_b_8297414.html) ~~~ scrollaway Why do you think that's disappointing? ~~~ newjersey I read this paragraph > "I think Snowden played a very important role in educating the American > public ... he did break the law, and I think there should be a penalty to > that," Sanders said. He went on to say that the role Snowden played in > educating the public about violations of their civil liberties should be > considered before he is sentenced, and that as president he would > "absolutely" end the NSA spying programs in question. and I would have disagreed with the analysis > To read between the lines: Bernie thinks Edward Snowden did the right thing, > but hey, laws are laws. If elected, though, it sounds like he'll make sure > Snowden gets a really nice jail cell. and said something along the lines of "the political system pardoned President Nixon without even going through the trouble of actually charging him with a crime. If a man like Nixon deserves pardon, I'd say Snowden does as well." But I am not Bernie Sanders and I can't put words in his mouth. He urged Snowden to come home and face trial. This may be a comforting thing for the people at home who watch the 8 PM news but this is not the right thing to do. Not in a nation that pardons people before they are convicted of a crime. No, I don't mean we should dig up Nixon's grave and hang, quarter, and draw his body (I wouldn't oppose doing so to Margaret Thatcher as the UK a historical precedence of such actions but that is off-topic). I don't even want to charge Nixon. All I am saying is there is a way to grant Edward Snowden the same amnesty and immunity that we gave President Nixon. Not because what the the two did were similar but I bring it up just as a demonstration of the things we have forgiven and forgotten as a nation. Edward Snowden did is a huge public service and he deserves our thanks for it. I am not the person above but this is why I am a little disappointed. I am a little concerned about Bernie Sanders saying as president he would "absolutely" end the NSA spying programs in question. Does the POTUS have access to everything that goes on in the NSA? Can't the programs continue/reboot under a different pretense? Worst case, if a president can put the program to sleep, what is to stop the next president to reanimate it? ~~~ cmrdporcupine I'm the person above and I endorse your comments generally. That said I am Canadian, so American laws concern me less. Snowden did the world a favour, not just the US public, by exposing what many of us already suspected was happening. Sanders has exposed himself in this as far less radical than he likes to market himself as. As a person running in an election to be a _lawmaker_ he has every right, actually responsibility, to criticize the laws that would imprison Snowden, and to agitate to recognize the problems Snowden pointed out. ~~~ ganeumann Actually, he is currently a lawmaker. He is running to be the person who executes the laws. Of course, this just makes his position worse. ------ hellofunk It says: >Did Snowden break the law? In passing classified information to reporters, he did. The Espionage Act explicitly prohibits such actions. But this violation surely needs to be balanced against the public service that Snowden carried out in informing the American public about the extent to which their government had been spying on them. I don't think you can say that someone broke real laws and then excuse it because public opinion or a subjective idea of public "service" somehow trumped the laws. The U.S. is a nation of laws. If something doesn't work as expected, laws are changed. The laws are either good or bad, but the nation runs because of these laws. You can debate the merits or lack thereof in what Snowden did, because that is a subjective opinion. You cannot debate the laws he broke. You cannot say "yeah, he broke the law, but...." because then, what is the value of law? It is possible to agree with Snowden's actions while still accepting that he broke laws. As soon as you excuse the law because it doesn't "feel" right, you walk a shaky path to anarchy. I see I am downvoted for this, but ironically it is not because I disagree with Snowden. I support what he revealed. But this article is not proper logic, in my opinion. I think it is interesting that Snowden himself prefers to be punished for breaking these laws, and spend his life in prison, rather than live out a life in another country. He accepts that he broke laws, why doesn't everyone else? Hillary's attitude on this is not "wrong" as the article claims. If you are running for president and think that you can excuse the Espionage Act, of all laws, that to me seems like the wrong attitude. ~~~ hellofunk In response to the commenters, we're talking about the Espionage Act, not jaywalking. What message does it send to excuse someone from breaking this law? It's a very important law, do we want anyone exposing national secrets? Giving him a pass on this particular law sets a dangerous precedent. I support what Snowden revealed, but why didn't he go about it legally? Can anyone provide a good reason why he didn't follow whistleblower laws? ~~~ dllthomas _" What message does it send to excuse someone from breaking this law?"_ It sends a message that if, in good conscience, you believe that what we're secretly doing is wrong enough that you need to reveal it to the American people, you can do so without facing inordinate punishment. This is the best possible message we can send! If we are going to have secret programs doing this kind of stuff, this is an important check that we're not being horrendously evil in the world. Remember that we're not polling a random collection of people, but people who have chosen to work on this kind of thing, whose paycheck relies on accepting it, who are regularly thinking about how to make it do more good and less bad and want to believe they're being somewhat competent at that, and people who have already been extensively vetted for security access. If one of _those_ people are sufficiently concerned to raise this kind of alarm, it needs to be raised. ~~~ hellofunk But somebody in good conscience could use our existing whistleblower laws to expose it right. Deliberately breaking a major law on national security isn't a risk we should recommend anyone to take. ~~~ slavik81 > Clinton said that Edward Snowden could have gotten all the protections of > being a whistleblower." A key 1998 law focused on intelligence community > workers does lay out a pathway Snowden could have followed. However, there > is at least a significant legal debate over whether the issues Snowden > wanted to raise would fall under that law. > Additionally, legal experts including an Army inspector general have said > that the 1998 law does not protect whistleblowers from reprisals. > The protections that Clinton referenced do not seem to be as strong as she > suggested, and most of the expert opinion suggests they would not apply to > Snowden. > We rate this claim Mostly False. [http://www.politifact.com/truth-o- meter/statements/2015/oct/...](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o- meter/statements/2015/oct/14/hillary-clinton/clinton-says-nsa-leaker-snowden- failed-use-whistle/) ------ enlightenedfool As a politician, she just reflects popular public opinion. "Right" or "wrong" is what the majority feels, unfortunately. If the public is strongly concerned about privacy, they shouldn't vote for her or likes. The headline should actually read "A majority of Americans are wrong about Edward Snowden" ~~~ cmrdporcupine We should expect leaders to lead. Here in Canada last year the majority of the public was (according to polls, 80ish %) on side with the government's very repressive Bill C-51. The only major political party to come out against it was the NDP and all the pundits predicted disaster for them. But they made the case and campaigned it and although the bill passed parliament, the NDP in fact had a major rise in the polls and public opinion swung the other direction and the bill became very unpopular. IHMO the reason we have political parties is to represent polarities of interests and opinions and principles and in a functional democracy the leaders within them should be making the arguments and trying to lead the public so we can hash the debate out in the public sphere. When everybody follows the polls we sink into a quagmire of mediocrity. ~~~ ZanyProgrammer And the NDP has since fallen from those heights in the polling. We (privacy concerned techies) might care about single issues, but the public doesn't (at least not our kind of issues). ~~~ cmrdporcupine Yes, that issue has vanished from the public eye for now. It was always hard to make it a focus. But is an example of good effective leadership to do so. ------ joesmo Who cares if Snowden broke the law if our own country is no longer ruled by law? I hear a lot of talk of whether Snowden should be punished or whether he should get a trial, but no talk about the punishment for the NSA. Until I see someone from the NSA going to jail for life, these kinds of questions are moot. ------ throwaway1150 >The exchange began with host Anderson Cooper asking Lincoln Chafee, a former governor of Rhode Island, “Governor Chafee: Edward Snowden, is he a traitor or a hero?” The answer really should be "both." Snowden supporters readily tout his commendable whistle-blowing of unlawful domestic intelligence gathering while at the same time ignoring, denying, or outright excusing stuff like this: [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached- ch...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-chinese- servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html?_r=0) Snowden fled first to China and then afterwards to Russia with as much as a terabyte of classified information, at least some of which--specifically information concerning intelligence operations the NSA conducted against Huawei--we know for a fact he shared with them. Even William Binney, another NSA whistle-blower (who, by contrast, did not seek asylum in two separate major geopolitical adversaries of the US), criticized Snowden's subsequent leaks: >But now he is starting to talk about things like the government hacking into China and all this kind of thing. He is going a little bit too far. I don't think he had access to that program. But somebody talked to him about it, and so he said, from what I have read, anyway, he said that somebody, a reliable source, told him that the U.S. government is hacking into all these countries. But that's not a public service, and now he is going a little beyond public service. > _So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor._ [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowd...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden- whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/) While Binney has since referred to Snowden as a "patriot," he has yet to publicly disavow his past criticisms of Snowden: [http://www.businessinsider.com/william-binney-and-edward- sno...](http://www.businessinsider.com/william-binney-and-edward- snowden-2014-10?op=1) ~~~ mixmastamyk He didn't flee to Russia, he was stopped there in transit. ~~~ BookmarkSaver You seriously believe that? You're willing to buy that explanation but not the far more reasonably alternatives? I mean ffs, he was claiming to be going from China to South America. Via a connection that just happened to go through Moscow of all places. Even Russia initially claimed that they had no evidence of his final destination. I cannot believe how so many people are so gullible as to imagine that ending up in Russia wasn't intentional. ~~~ mixmastamyk Yes, if I remember correctly his passport was revoked during the flight. There are not so many flights from Asia to South America, and many that do transit in Los Angeles, or other countries with extradition treaties. Do you have any concrete info? ~~~ csandreasen His passport was revoked the day before he left Hong Kong.[1]. He traveled to Russia on what turned out to be an invalid travel document issued by the Ecuadorian embassy in London [2] (same one that Julian Assange is holed up in). [1] [http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker- snowdens...](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens- passport-revoked) [2] [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador- rafael-...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael- correa-snowden-mistake) ------ vacri It's sad that even after all this time, the diversionary topic "hero or traitor?" gets more attention than the actual issues exposed. ------ ZanyProgrammer No remotely electable candidate will have a view that differs much from Hillary. And no, L Lessig is not a remotely electable candidate, outside of our little circles of like minded activists and writers. ------ wernercd More correctly: 'liary Clinton is wrong about everything. And if she happens to be right, it's because polling said that was the right answer and she's lying to you to get elected. And there seems to be more opinions saying BS won the debate "hands down" than saying HC did. ------ RcouF1uZ4gsC Snowden took classified and sensitive information and went to 2 countries that are the major geopolitical rivals of the United States (and that probably care less about their citizens' privacy). He claims (with no way to verify) that he did not give them any classified information. So Russia and China provided sanctuary to a member of the intelligence community without getting any classified information? Has, even the US done something like that for members ofRussia's or China's intelligence services? I find that very hard to believe. If he had stayed in the United States, he would have had a trial. Even if convicted, I think he would have portrayed as an unequivocal patriot and with the intense pressure would have been pardoned by now. Now, he is seen as a traitor and not without cause. ~~~ vezzy-fnord _Has, even the US done something like that for members ofRussia 's or China's intelligence services?_ Yes. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_intelligence_p...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_intelligence_personnel_who_defected_to_the_United_States) ~~~ IIAOPSW Not that I disagree with you, but literally everyone in that list _did_ share information with the CIA. ~~~ vezzy-fnord Well, the political climate of the Russia at the time meant they were full defectors and not merely asylum seekers as in Snowden's case. Snowden hasn't actually renounced his citizenship, from what I know.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Battery-Electric Heavy-Duty Equipment: It's Sort of Like a Cybertruck - duck https://insideevs.com/news/384021/heavy-duty-equipment-meets-electrification/ ====== westurner > _They’ve created a single platform that can be easily modified to do any > number of jobs. For instance, their flagship product, the Dannar 4.00, can > accept over 250 attachments from CAT, John Deere, or Bobcat. […] Having > interoperability with so many different types of equipment, one platform can > easily perform many tasks over the course of a year. This is a huge win for > cash strapped municipalities. Why would a company or municipality opt to > have a backhoe parked all winter long when it could be doing another job?_ Does it have regenerative brakes?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Your Password Complexity Requirements Suck - stevepaulo https://medium.com/302-found/your-password-complexity-requirements-suck-7934c4e4b295 ====== gerdesj "like 15 minutes from the login attempt, and randomly generate a string for the token itself. Send a link to the user, when they click it, find them by the token, and log them in." Many common greylisting schemes will delay for 15 minutes or more. Don't (ab)use email for something it was never designed for: instant delivery of a token. email will get the message through eventually - that is what it is designed to do but nowadays it has to run through of a lot of filtering and you are asking people to have squeaky clean SPF/DKIM and probably DMARC and also have to consider DNSSEC and lots of other things. email is still bloody good for message delivery but you are asking for administrators of an auth/auth system to become email sysadmins.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Google Maps Engine could be quietly coming to a halt soon - ArtDev http://www.zdnet.com/article/google-maps-engine-quietly-coming-to-a-halt-as-sign-up-window-shutters/ ====== Someone For someone not familiar with the details of Google's offerings, I find that a confusing read. The article mentions the following Google ?products?: \- Google Maps Engine \- Google Maps Engine API \- Google base map \- Maps Engine Pro \- Google Maps Gallery \- Google Maps Coordinate (I suspect the first two are the same thing) A visit to [https://developers.google.com/maps/](https://developers.google.com/maps/) doesn't help me at all. It only further confuses by introducing new terms: \- Maps image APIs \- Places API \- Web Services \- Google Maps API for Work \- Embed API What exactly gets retired? Ability to show Google Maps on web sites? Ability to use its routing API? Ability to add custom layers to maps on web sites? Something else? What, if any, effect will this have? ------ ArtDev Bummer.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder - epi0Bauqu http://blog.cubeofm.com/the-subtleties-in-outsourcing-using-rentacode ====== andrewljohnson I've had experience using online sites to source jobs, and I think this advice is right on. Here are some summary points, generalized away from rent-a-coder: * don't hire Americans to do commodity work (i.e. PHP CRUD) * be clear but not ominous in your job description, and include visual mocks if at all possible * don't try and be secretive - no one wants your dumb idea anyways * make sure someone has a decent reputation on the site you use * keep track of the progress of the product and keep in touch with the coder, but don't be overbearing * be somewhat flexible with the deliverable - aim for perfect but accept done * test the code thoroughly and request fixes in one shot, but don't conflate new features with bug fixes or no one will be happy The only points I would modify are: * Job requests can include bullets, but don't be overly fine-grained. * You can in fact build relationships with outsourcers via rent-a-coder (MTurk, 99Designs, etc), and you should - this will lead to much better long-term work. A good way to get this started is an unexpected bonus. * Don't ever screw someone on work. This is just karmically bad. They live in Eastern Europe and are poor. You live in America and are rich. I think the best way is to give someone a piece of work (5-10 hours worth), ask them for a bill, and proceed from there. If the work sucks or is over-billed, you pay and move on. Otherwise, you can give them more work. ~~~ fnid2 _don't hire Americans to do commodity work (i.e. PHP CRUD)_ This is why Americans are saying they are from overseas to get the jobs. If the price is the same, what does it matter where they are from? Speaking a common primary language and being in the same time zone has value. When I offshore work, I send an email and have to wait until the next day to get a response. When the worker is in my timezone and I get quick responses, the project success rate improves. I agree with the other points and have been on both sides of the payer/worker transaction. ~~~ mrkurt If the prices are the same, the American probably isn't as skilled/experienced. ~~~ lsc have you hired anyone from overseas? have you hired an American for overseas wages? I've done both, and the amount of money a person can charge has a lot less to do with skill and experience than you think. Several people who worked for me for sustenance wages now make more money than I do because other people noticed that they are pretty good. Selling yourself is a skill, and it has very little overlap with the skills required to be a good Engineer. ~~~ mrkurt That sounds like the very definition of gaining experience to me. :) I'm sure there are exceptions, but on aggregate I'd be shocked if you can find Americans to build something for you as, say, equivalently skilled Romanians. There are millions of reasons you'd elect to pay more for the Americans, but the localized standards of living at a given rate are going to keep Romanians cheaper at the equivalent skill levels. That said, it sounds like you have more experience with this than I do, so this may be that one time in 2010 I'm simply wrong. ;) ~~~ lsc As for experience, yeah, these people were more valuable after working for me than before; but at least some of these people had decent paying jobs before, then lost them in the downturn, lost hope, and ended up doing menial jobs. One was the classic example; this guy happened to be my roommate at one point. He was obviously brilliant, but he practically radiated self-doubt. He had this slouch that took a few inches of his height and make him look a little like he thought you were going to hit him. But he was obviously brilliant, and had worked as a C/C++ programmer for a while, he even had some open-source code out there. But he lost his job during the .com crash and had been subsisting since on savings, menial jobs and an occasional elance-type gig. oh man, and his lack of confidence absolutely killed him there. He had this one client who'd call him up for hours every night and kept adding features and changing requirements. He said he made $2/hr on the gig when he said he was quitting. At that point I think he was into me some for rent, so I offered to hire him at $40/hr. I called up his customer and explained that I'd get the work done for $60/hr, but he couldn't talk to my friend, and that he'd be paying for phone, time, too (I was, well, quite a bit younger at the time. 22? 23? and thought $60/hr was a fine wage for yelling at/getting yelled at by some asshole. I was just figuring out the whole 'if you are arrogant and aggressive, people give you what you want' thing.) The job got done, and everyone got paid, and my ego got stroked. (I mean, yeah, the wages were not awesome, but eh, when you are that age, it's certainly a living wage) Really, once you got down to coding, my friend's apparent self-doubt evaporated like it was just an illusion. "I don't write segmentation faults" he insisted. But he did really badly in interviews. But my point was that he was really good before he worked for me; but that fact was obscured by the year or two of downtime after the .com crash. My friend eventually got noticed by a real recruiter, and got a full-time job shortly thereafter. he currently works for some compiler company or something making rather a lot more money than I do. (more than I was making when I left my full-time job... my current business pays me, ah, mostly in equity.) obviously, one anecdote does not equal statistical significance; I'm just saying, I've seen people with experience fall behind in the 'interview arms race' and end up underemployed, to the detriment of their potential employers. Because it is so hard to sort the really good people from the mediocre or the useless, there is huge value that can be had correcting the market's mistakes. ~~~ mrkurt After reading this, I'm pretty sure we generally agree but I didn't really say much in my first comment. Anything approaching full time work is really going to work differently than Rent-A-Coder style projects. I would expect the costs for my mythical Romanians to approach the costs of an American like your roommate, though their actual hourly rate might be cheaper. I will try to be more explicit next time I make a throwaway one-line comment. ------ wallop Extremely well-written, concise-but-detailed, no-bullshit guide to a process that I have shied away from because it seemed to involve a lot of mysterious complexities. The author's recommendations provide extremely reasonable advice to follow in any project management endeavor. He emphasizes an assertive but respectful approach, taking the needs of both sides of the project into consideration and outlines a wide range of practical details that you could only know about from having a high degree of first-hand familiarity with this service. I'm saving this and hope to draw on it soon, now that it doesn't seem quite so daunting. Thanks for posting. ------ scorpioxy Interesting article. Some inaccuracies: \- "Rentacoder does not have skilled developers from western countries. What it has are freelancers from countries like Romania, India, Pakistan and Russia." Nope. It has developers from all over(I live in Lebanon). Freelance programmers are simply programmers that don't work exclusively for one client. I am guessing you don't mean this in a bad way... \- "The availability of particular skills is very limited." I started my freelance career on RAC 4 years ago. 6 months into it, i was taking on bigger projects using some of the technologies you mentioned(I'm a python guy but also do C# and Java...). Roughly 8 months into it, i was working with start ups and people were contacting me directly even though my rates are not the cheapest. I no longer look for gigs on RAC, but its certainly a viable lively hood if you're picky with the projects you take on. The trick is to always be honest and decent, the way you should behave in real life. I also found it funny that some Indian companies started outsourcing projects to me. ~~~ lzm I'm from Latin America, and just recently I started using sites like RentACoder/oDesk/Elance. I've found that it is extremely hard for me to get jobs on these sites, especially since I'm not a webdesigner (I'm a C/C++/Python/Java guy). What tips and strategies do you recommend that increase the likelihood of being selected for a job? ~~~ mixmax A friend of mine needs a small project done (videocompression and storage with a webbased frontend) and has asked me where to get it done. I referred him to rentacoder and elance, but I'd much rather refer him to someone from HN. If you're interested (or if anyone else is for that matter) you can send me a mail and I'll get you in touch with the guy. My mail is max (at) maximise.dk ------ patio11 This is my favorite genre of HN post: news you can use backed by real experience. I don't necessarily agree with all of the advice but a few bits in there are eyeopening for me. (For example, I had never known that the newsletter was a key channel for getting your project seen. That's the sort of non-obvious insight that is worth its weight in gold.) Thanks Max. ~~~ scorpioxy Well, not just newsletters. I still subscribe to the RAC RSS feed even though I haven't done any RAC work for quite a while. It was easier to just skim the headlines in my reader and tag the ones i replied to for later reference. It has nothing to do with the newsletter. But setting too low a price gives the message that you're not serious about the work or are just trying to find someone to take advantage of(and you will if that's what you're looking for). ------ jacquesm What a super article. It is actually really good reading too for anybody that manages programmers and/or designers, outside the context of rent-a-coder. Things like scope creep and how to return beta reviews are really spelled out well. ------ jackfoxy Suppose I have a real company, and I want to expense or capitalize this. Does anyone have experience with IRS rules on this? What if the guy is in the U.S.? Do I have to send a 1099 to every coder I rent in this fashion to protect myself and my company? ~~~ bestes I used oDesk and found that because it is a corporation, I don't need to send them a 1099. And, because all the people work for you through the company, you don't have to do anything special. ~~~ jackfoxy thanks ------ tom_ilsinszki "For C++ and more complex projects, you can pick from the U.S and Europe." – I never thought programming languages where area-dependent. ~~~ robryan People feel more comfortable giving out simple work in something like PHP to cheaper countries which in some cases can come back to bite you with more complex stuff as a decent size C++ project can be. ------ 10ren What size project would you typically get done for the $450-$550 mentioned? I'm intrigued that this might be a way to get some small projects done I've been putting off done (like a simple shopping cart app with a few specific functions, that I just can't get interested in.) ~~~ maxklein For $250 you could get your shopping cart app done. Think of about $200 - $400 for a weeks work (fulltime) by a competent programmer. Then estimate how long it will take him and put that price. ~~~ kungfooey Wow, $200 a week for 40 hours. That works out to $5 an hour. Is that a livable wage even in Eastern Europe? I think I need to find another trade. ~~~ scorpioxy I highly doubt it is. $200 a week can definitely get you a shopping cart. But so can $10. And I am not sure how well it will work. Usually for that kind of money you'd get someone customizing or re-branding an off-the-shelf open source one or some programmer trying his hand out at writing it from scratch. Use of open source components is fine and probably the way to go but its not ethical if you don't tell your client that you're doing so otherwise use a framework. I'd say something like $500 should get you a shopping cart with the regular functionality. Probably $200 for customizing an existing off-the-shelf one. Of course these are just my opinions and experience, so they might be completely off target. ~~~ robryan You get what you pay for, just in terms of what the freelancer perceives to be decent money. Paying someone from a cheaper country $5 an hour will probably give the same kind of hacky late rush job that giving someone local $10 an hour. ------ rubyrescue This is great stuff and worth referring back to when you initiate a project. My experiences as a hiring manager have been from having a dude stiff me for $800 of work, to hiring a full-time developer I found on rentacoder that became a personal friend. ------ josh33 Can anyone comment on which site is best? I recognize this might lead to more traffic on your site, but it would help to understand why one would use rentacoder over getafreelancer... ------ lsc wow, this is really interesting to hear; See, I thought that nearly all work on these type sites (my experience has been with e-lance, many years ago) had mechanisms for paying people through the site, but from what I saw, only the first transaction was done that way. After that, the contractor and contractee worked directly, so it's interesting to read that some people found enough value in the structure provided by the site to continue using it after meeting a person. ~~~ scorpioxy Well, some people just use it for payment later on if they don't want the hassle of wire transfers and such. For RAC, they used to charge 10% of the transaction value so it could build up. My experience was that most people contacted me off site after our first project but sometimes still used RAC for payment because it was easier for them(I can't use paypal). Although they were nice enough to take on the 10% charge. ------ wellwatch Does anyone know of RentACoder style sites for signal processing? ~~~ scorpioxy You can always try and post that on RAC and see if anyone bites, but i think you'd find more people who work on that on dedicated forums or groups. ------ aneth After some experience outsourcing through RAC, I've concluded that paying more for local developers and designers who buy into and understand your product and business model, speak the same language, and share your culture, is often worth it. Unless your product is extremely straightforward and doesn't need to be flexible in the future, there is a huge hidden cost when your developers aren't on the same page. In my experience, the result is far from "agile."	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Vine places porn at the top of every user’s feed - taytus http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/28/vine-porn/ ====== joshstrange > “I clicked on the video b/c I thought the warning was a joke,” wrote in the > comments. I’m furious I had to see something like this.” Really? And somehow it is Vine's fault you saw porn while clicking on a video named "Dildoplay" with the tags "nsfw" "porn" "nsfwvine". I can't feel sorry for you. Yes it is too bad that this showed up in the first place but lets not start with the pitchforks. This was a simple mistake that was completely avoidable by users who have 2 eyes and can read. Like I said it shouldn't have been there in the first place but lots not act like you accidentally clicked on a video that has all the correct warning of it's content. "Officer, I didn't know that when I pulled the pin out of that grenade that it would explode, I thought it was a joke". ~~~ goblin89 Well, Vine is rated 12+ in App Store. “Infrequent/Mild Sexual Content or Nudity”. I'm not sure what are ramifications if an application violates assigned ratings. On a second thought, “Infrequent/Mild” is vague enough: does slash mean “or”? ~~~ CrazedGeek I'd imagine it's pulled ASAP. None of the major app store providers allow porn on their stores, do they? ~~~ jkaljundi They allow browsers, but those are: "You must be at least 17 years old to download this app." ------ DanBC I'd be interested to read why it was selected as an "Editor's pick". There's also a small possibility an English law was broken. (<http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/12>) ~~~ ChuckMcM The comment that it was "Human error" was also interesting, perhaps someone made it a favorite while logged in as the Editor? Of course the interesting bit for me was that the system had a porn screen in place, it "knew" it was porny since it required you to tap it to view it, so why does the program / tool that makes it "Editor's Choice" not automatically reject as an error an attempt to promote a porny video to that spot? Google Video (the service that existed at Google before and to some extent after :-) they bought YouTube) early on used an algorithm for picking the top videos to put on the page based on views/ratings/comments etc but that early algorithm had built in from the start a check for things being NSFW and thus preventing them from ever making the list. Seems like a brain fart. Either that or a poor attempt at getting publicity for the service. That latter would be really lame if Apple pulls the App based on the commotion. ~~~ tantalor _why does the program / tool that makes it "Editor's Choice" not automatically reject as an error an attempt to promote a porny video to that spot_ This was the second mistake. There should be business rules in place to prevent this. Most likely they rushed the app to production without considering this case. ------ huhtenberg An offtopic, but check this out - <http://imgur.com/kIacbiR> It's a list of external dependencies of the linked VentureBeat page. I've been running RequestPolicy for a while now, but have never seen a website being this frivolous with sharing their hit information. ~~~ shaggyfrog Install Ghostery and watch as it blocks all 24 of those insidious little things. And for every other site, too. ~~~ huhtenberg Ah, no. Ghostery has its own problems, stemming from who wrote it. ~~~ Evbn Don't leave us hanging. ~~~ huhtenberg The Better Advertising Project, with the basic idea to profile end-user ad- blocking activity on the Internet and to resell this data to advertisers. This might be OK with some people, but for me, personally, it's just too close for comfort. ~~~ shaggyfrog Let's say they are re-selling this data that says who ad blocks. And I'm ad-blocking everything. So advertisers find out that an increasingly growing segment of the population don't abide "traditional" Internet advertising. This is bad for me why exactly? Honest question. ~~~ huhtenberg Why do you block ads? It's a leading question, and the answer is likely to be that they are annoying. But why are they annoying? If you drill down a bit, then it's not because they blink, but because someone somewhere thought that you should see their ad. Because they made a decision for you, without asking, and it's not a decision that you would've made yourself. Similarly, any sort of reporting, anonymous or not, falls into the same domain - someone somewhere decided that you should be OK with it. I don't appreciate this. It's not what they _do_ , it's the fact that they thought they _could_ do it. It's ethics. I don't have a problem with someone accidentally farting in a room, but I would have a problem if someone had a choice of walking out, thought it over and then proceeded to do it anyway. It might be OK with others, but it's not OK with me. HTH. ------ dlokshin One of the perils of being a startup, and instead of growing organically and having these embarrassing moments early in front of a small number of hardcore users (who will use you no matter what, and forgive you no matter what you do), you get pushed out by a behemoth like Twitter. ------ Irishsteve While its embarrassing for Vine to have porn pop up in the top of users feed's , and the societal norms say it's a "bad thing" for the company; I can't but help feel that in actual fact this would attract far more users. ~~~ danso I don't think so in this case...even if we assume that porn is a major driver in tech (I think iOS's whitewashed dominance is a clear counter argument), _six-second porn_ is likely not satisfying enough for porn aficionados to stick around with. Even if there are some _great_ clips, it's still seems like a lot of work to hit refresh-next-whatever (I don't know, I don't have the app), nevermind wading through all the unsatisfying clips. Meanwhile, the many users who do not want to see porn, either at all, or at least during daytime hours, will have a negative user experience. ~~~ mnicole I think you underestimate people here. They've been hitting refresh and waiting for static images to load for a long time. Vinepeek makes allows you to just sit back and watch, and with the addition of tag searching, I'd imagine that sitting through this content isn't a chore at all considering the lengths people will go to find new material to begin with. ------ moondowner There's an easy fix: add options panel with hashtags to filter out. And add #porn as one of the defaults in it. ~~~ jerf Your solution depends on pornographer's honesty in tagging. They have tons of incentive to be dishonest this way. ~~~ untog I'm genuinely confused as to what the incentive is for the people posting the porn. They certainly aren't profiting from it- do they just have a vested interest in seeing Vine fail? ~~~ rexreed It's an advertisement for viewers to "see more" -- there's lots of free porn out there, and most of it is used to funnel a percentage of the viewers to paid subscription sites where other / more similar content exists. Conversion rates are not as low as you think. ------ nextstep I honestly feel that most users would not be offended by this, but might feel embarrassed if this showed while they're showing the app to their parents or a non-close friend. However, I'm sure that Apple (or their censors) take things like this somewhat seriously, which is silly because this is the Internet! There are going to be offensive things every now and then; that's what happens when you democratize the creation of content. I wish Apple would take a more hands-off approach and just throw-up some disclaimer that "online interactions are not rated by Apple" and leave it at that. ~~~ tlrobinson Or just make age ratings opt-in. By default all apps would be "unrated" and thus prohibited when parental controls are enabled. Apps that can guarantee no adult content can request a rating review. ------ Sym3tri Am I the only one who installed this app AFTER reading this article :P ------ SODaniel I guess you could also describe this as 'Vine creates first real time video priority engine to 'get it right'' for a large percentage of users. ------ electrichead I loved the ad I saw on the page (I am on a mobile device) proclaiming, "Need an eye exam?" from Pearle Vision. Seems oddly fitting. ------ MostAwesomeDude Sounds like everything's working as intended here. It's not like the Internet is used for anything besides anonymous slander and porn anyway. Edit: And ponies. ~~~ ybrs and lolcats	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Building and Motivating Engineering Teams (2016) - luu http://www.elidedbranches.com/2016/11/building-and-motivating-engineering.html ====== marmaduke The triad of money, purpose and respect is worth keeping in mind if you are reevaluating where you currently work, asking if you should stay: do you get paid enough to not think about money, have purpose and respect? Elsewhere (not sure) I've read, suggests adding the luxuries of autonomy and mastery to the list. ------ kunkelast I would recommend this blog post about this very subject: [https://www.yegor256.com/2017/09/19/what-motivates- me.html](https://www.yegor256.com/2017/09/19/what-motivates-me.html) (to show the other side of the story, from the PoV of a programmer) ------ trhway being a software engineer when i see all those "motivate engineering teams" i somehow feel like a cattle seeing a shepherd's herding manual ~~~ mruniverse I'm waiting for the "motivate executives" book. It'll probably be a paragraph which starts with "give them more money".	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Australia's net censorship and Operation Titstorm - monkeygrinder http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2784&blogid=10 ====== monkeygrinder I wrote this in response to this: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1114122>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A numerical analysis of Quicksort: How many cases are bad cases? [pdf] - edofic http://arxiv.org/pdf/1507.04220v1.pdf ====== coherentpony If you're going to post articles from arxiv, please post the top-level description so I can read the abstract before being forced to download a PDF document. [http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.04220](http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.04220) ------ BetaCygni > An attempt to solve this problem has been randomization as shown already in > Hoare’s first articles on Quicksort [1]. On the other hand, this does not > change the statistical probability for bad cases. I really like the randomization solution. Worst case? What worst case? ~~~ matslina Well, the worst case is still there. You're just going to have a very hard time crafting an input that triggers it. ------ Kenji I remember, at uni, in the second semester, we had an assignment to specifically craft a sequence of n numbers 1..n that would trigger the worst case (#permutations) in a quicksort algorithm that always takes the first number in the array as the pivot. It was a nightmare. I spent days on it, and I was barely able to scrape together a notation to specify such a series. Turns out the sample solutions were like "The appropriate sequence is not easy to write. The sequence must be designed such that every chosen pivot halves the area that will be stored." Well, yeah. EDIT: I wrote worst case #permutations. That's the best case #comparisons. So, no, I don't mean a sorted sequence ;) ~~~ rachbowyer If quicksort always takes the first element in the array as the pivot, then an array that is already sorted is the worst case. ------ rachbowyer If Quicksort worst case performance is a problem then use Introsort ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introsort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introsort)), which the paper fails to mention. ------ lsiebert It strikes me that, if three way partitioning is useful only if you are dealing with a limited set of values in relation to n, you could hash or insertion sort into an array the values for the first pass of the algorithm over the whole array (stopping if the count of uniques got bigger then some value based on n), and then decide to threeway partition if you hadn't stopped. I feel like the recursive median of medians throws away a great deal of information, given all the comparisons you make. At the very least, for the final step, you know where the high and low values go, and could easily place them in the appropriate sides of the array. ------ coreyp_1 I love quicksort, and enjoyed the paper. Yes, I'm a nerd. Thanks for asking.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Soviet Union Is Gone, but It’s Still Collapsing - jseliger https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/12/22/the-unlearned-lessons-from-the-collapse-of-the-soviet-union/#browder ====== Nomentatus I kept looking for a pony in this pile, but I didn't find one. No new facts, ending with a call to, well... non-action or at least no mentioned action, just a hollow call. I can't find the citation, but I've read a much better article this week that pointed out that 75% of Russian GNP is now government authored; that just doesn't fit the kleptocracy narrative of an economy being handed to a private mafia. (Up from less than 40% a decade or more ago.) Which directly contradicts the standard narrative echoed by this fluff article, of private ownership run wild, sucking all the economic activity away from the state toward individual owners. This data point suggests a very different story: that a concerted effort by a group - not a single individual - is being made to reconstruct a Soviet Union 2.0 that works somewhat better than Communism 1.0 and isn't visibly tied to Marxist ideals - communism with lowered expectations, as it were.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why I Love Basic Auth - selmat https://www.rdegges.com/2015/why-i-love-basic-auth/ ====== st3fan Yes to all of this.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why is WinPhone a failure but OSX a success? - netpenthe OSX has about 9% market share and has taken a long time to get there.<p>i don't think it is considered a massive failure<p>c.f.<p>Windows Phone which has about 4% of the phone market and growing fast, but is considered by many to be a failure.<p>why ====== mamcx For a lot of reasons. OSX have a _profitable_ section of the market. Is not the size what determine if something is or not a failure, is your POSITION in that market. Having 90% of all the non-paying customer VS 10% of all the paying customers is a different position for a for-profit company. In this case, you truly want the 10%. If WinPhone have a desirable portion of the market, untouched/unchallenged by others, then could be called a success. Le't use a contrived example: vim/emacs have a strong position in a desirable sub-set of the developer mindshare. His position is so strong, that no-IDE to date have be able to destroy it. Then if also is growing, is something powerful. Let's play the (almost incorrect) stereotype of the Apple users: Them are hipster, richer, more creative, select for themselves the gadgets, etc. And pay. This segment, even at %1, is valuable. And if nobody else touch it, then is more than valuable, is unchallenged. Could be say: Is bullet-prof, failure- prof. And then android. Android is for geeks (and the masses that wanna cheap). Have the subset of geeks is desirable. Probably, a lot of android users hate so bad Apple that will never use it. The position of Android in that case is solid. Both have solid position. Windows phone? No have it. ------ mcintyre1994 To preface this, I think it's unfair to consider Windows Phone a failure at this point. I think it's a matter of business models. OS X, like iOS has Apple hardware and software, huge margins and makes Apple the most profitable OEM in both markets. Windows Phone, more like Android (and Windows of course) allows multiple manufacturers to provide it, and all those manufacturers who also produce Android phones are doing better with Android. It's not a totally fair comparison because they pay for WP licenses, but then they pay for MS patents with Android too. There's also the issue of Nokia, an iconic manufacturer who bet everything on Windows Phone. It's not fair, but Windows Phone has the pressure of keeping Nokia alive. Basically, Microsoft took the Windows approach to Windows Phone, in a market Android is entrenched with a similar (cheaper for OEMs) approach. In that light, 4% against 90% or so for Windows with the same model looks like a failure. ------ GoldenMonkey OSX is a failure compared to Windows Desktop Marketshare. And this is important because software is built for Windows first and OSX later or never. Case in point, mac users often 'need to' run VM's to run windows apps. Windows is the dominant platform for the desktop. Windows Phone on the other hand is a failure because at 4% marketshare, Microsoft has no workable business model. They are losing money to play catch up. Carriers have cheaper and better margin alternatives to pushing windows phones. Developers don't have the user base to justify apps for the platform. Consumers don't see the compelling reason to switch from iOS or android. The sad thing is, the windows phone business (6.x) was doing great at 16% market share before iOS and android. Microsoft got disrupted by new technology. ------ tsagi Mac OS X is a necessity for some users specially in media related industries and not only. It also manages to offer most of the software regular users want and Apple makes a profit from Mac sales. As hardware and software Windows Phone is by no means a failure. Nokia creating beautiful devices with good cameras and the fact that even in low specs WP runs snappy is promising and helped a lot to achieve this 4%. But WP is not yet profitable. One of the reasons Windows Phone is considered to be a failure is that it hasn't managed to create an ecosystem where most popular apps exist at the three years of its existing form (counting from Windows Phone 7). ------ electic First off, I think you are talking about iOS not OS X. If you are talking about OS X then you need to look at margins, not marketshare. ~~~ lostlogin iOS has more than 9%, but I suspect your right about the margins. If your 9% share makes you the most profitable PC maker, what's the point in being the leader in market share? ~~~ chris_wot If you become the market leader then you make bigger bucks. ~~~ lostlogin Android versus iOS. ------ lostlogin This is a good question. I don't pretend to know the answer, however the following may be related. In print, design, photography, music etc, OSX has far more than 10% of the market. Macs are a standard in small but important markets. The (so-called) creatives for example. I don't see an area where this is true for smart phones. ~~~ replax I am not sure I agree. Many design companies and advertisement copmanies I know charge extra if their project has to involve anything to be done on a mac. eg if the client wants a mac compatible file, final cut project etc, because of the added overhead as macs apparently don't play nice with other systems. also, they dont have any advantage over a dedicated windows machine anymore stability wise. ~~~ bennyg Where I went to college, The University of Alabama, their design departments in the College of Art and Art History only had Macs in the computer labs where graphic design was taught. And the Advertising department only had Macs in the computer labs across the whole College of Communication and Information Sciences - which includes Advertising, PR, Communication Studies, Journalism, Videography, etc. When it came down to the amount of computers with the Adobe CS software packages on them, the main Library on campus was about 95% Macs, and you had to go up 3 floors before you finally got to a computer lab that had Windows with CS on them. And there were only about 8 of them. Just one data point, I know, but my college was basically training people to work on a Mac if you used any Adobe CS software. ------ covgjai Here in India, Windows phone is not only gaining sales it is also gaining market share relative to others. Windows Phone momentum has never been as high as it is now. I think it is same all over the world. ~~~ froze Hmm...interesting. Which part of India is this happening? ------ informatimago winphone is a failure because nokia who once had basically 100% of the smartphone market doens't exist anymore since they switched to winphone. [http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/10/the- the...](http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/10/the-there- pillars-of-nokia-strategy-have-all-failed-why-nokia-must-fire-ceo-elop- now.html) ------ geuis Who exactly is considering Windows Phone a failure? When iOS came on the scene, it was mostly a different kind of animal than any other phone. There wasn't really any similar device so it got first-comer status. Android was able to compete by taking an opposite model. Be cheap and on as many devices as possible, which is more or less what Windows did back in the '80's to out compete Macintosh. Windows Phone took a very different UI/UX approach and was late into what had become a competitive market. Considering all that, 4% market share and continuing growth is good. If it was stagnant or shrinking, that would be something different.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: What monitor/alert system do you use to monitor your cloud servers? - fbueno I'm a nagios user, but I'm having problems to find an "equivalent" solution to my elastic AWS opsworks stacks. I mean, machines will be created, terminated, stopped, launched or for some reason down.<p>I'm trying to use check_mk WATO api to configure a "scheduled down time" when a machine is stopped for example. Or even using the opsworks time based instances to avoid false alarms. I also would like to start monitoring new instances, and stop when the instance is terminated.<p>The hosts are running docker containers started by fig/docker-compose. Each fig.yml has its own 'monitor' container which is configured to monitor all the containers running on that host. This way I can monitor normal things on the host (cpu, disk, load, etc) and also only one HTTP check to my monitor container.<p>This is configured using the "custom json" opsworks and chef.<p>I saw that there are a whole new world about monitoring out there (prometheus, boson, shinken, etc ) and the SaaS like boundary, datalog etc.<p>My primary concern is to alert sysadmin guys when an http service (the monitor container) from one of the hosts returns something diferrent of HTTP 200 OK status code, for example.<p>Which tool or service would you guys suggest me ?<p>Thanks ====== tb93 Hi, try VisualOps's docker integration: www.visualops.io [https://medium.com/@visualops/a-simple-solution-for- service-...](https://medium.com/@visualops/a-simple-solution-for-service- discovery-in-docker-b4b520f376be) ------ johns For HTTP monitoring, check out [https://www.runscope.com/docs/radar](https://www.runscope.com/docs/radar) (disclosure: I'm a founder)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How do you manage env variables and secrets? - kulikalov Man, I'm tired of this topic. I have gitlab CI, local environments, keychain, keepass, gcp, aws and a whole bunch of other places where some of my env variables stored. Furthermore, Expo apps, for example, can't pull .env files, so I have to write bash scripts to create js files. This hurts my brain.<p>I want to have a cozy place where I store all my variables and secrets safely per project per environment. I want to share it with my team, CI servers etc. I want to just specify a single key: the environemnt title. And all the variables should be pulled from somewhere. Is there such tool anywhere on the internet??? ====== bchelli Regarding Expo specifically: >>> I have to write bash scripts to create js files. This hurts my brain. There is an issue on Expo's Github about env management [https://github.com/expo/expo/issues/83](https://github.com/expo/expo/issues/83) Now on a more general use case, I guess there are two types of applications: \- Client-side (like Expo): I would not store any "secret" for security purposes, just configuration. You seem to use JS for your client-side so use dotenv packages ([https://www.npmjs.com/package/dotenv](https://www.npmjs.com/package/dotenv), [https://www.npmjs.com/package/dotenv- webpack](https://www.npmjs.com/package/dotenv-webpack), etc...) \- Server-side: Depending on your environment, CI, hosting you might have a different solution, sadly not any one-fits-all solution to my knowledge. Heroku provides a pretty straight forward solution, on my production environment I use a configuration management, Chef's Data Bag but you could as well use a service discovery like Consul, Zookeeper, Etcd, etc... I hope this is a bit helpful. ------ sigmaprimus >>> "I have to write bash scripts to create js files. This hurts my brain." Not sure what you can do about this part, maybe asprin? But if your ok with storing the keys to your accounts with a third party and the risks that poses, maybe you could use something like git-secret? [https://git-secret.io](https://git-secret.io) ------ gingerlime plugging envwarden[0] - a tiny open source wrapper around Bitwarden[1] (also open-source). Allows you to export secrets, write them to a .env file etc. And you manage your secrets in the same place as your passwords. [0] [https://github.com/envwarden/envwarden](https://github.com/envwarden/envwarden) [1] [https://bitwarden.com/](https://bitwarden.com/) ------ danenania We built EnvKey to solve this exact problem. Check it out - [https://www.envkey.com](https://www.envkey.com)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Tesla Cybertruck - sahin-boydas https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck ====== ogre_codes Unlike any other previous Tesla, or for that matter any other previous electric car, this is a reasonable value proposition. Everyone is so busy panning the looks they are overlooking the utility of this truck. Even the Model 3 is expensive compared to its peers at $35k. This this is priced competitive with non-electric trucks, heck, it's priced extremely _well_ versus electric trucks. A 6 seat truck with a 6.5 foot truck bed and a 3500 pound capacity for $40k is genuinely competitive with GM/ Ford, likewise $50k for a 4WD truck which tows 14k pounds is absolutely reasonable. Unless you are regularly driving more than 250 miles per day, being able to charge at home is way better than filling up at gas stations. ~~~ kllrnohj > Unless you are regularly driving more than 250 miles per day, being able to > charge at home is way better than filling up at gas stations. There's no way the Tesla truck gets 250 miles when loaded up with 3500 pounds or hauling a trailer. It's very unclear if the range is sufficient if you use this truck like an actual truck where you need those things. Similarly if you are using this as a work truck there's some poor design choices involved here, too. Like the inability to access the bed from the sides of the vehicle. Or the non-flat roof complicating roof racks or additional lighting. This appears to be more of a "lifestyle" truck than a "work" truck, and in that market how important are the extra cargo pounds or trailer capacity? ~~~ babypuncher 250 is the range of the base model. The top end model doubles that. ~~~ kllrnohj The top-end model also nearly doubles the price and puts it in an entirely different class of competition. The $50k Cybertruck, comparable in price to something like the F-150 Raptor or Tacoma TRD Pro, is "only" 300 mile range. At the top-end model's $70k you're deep into Ford Super Duty territory ~~~ thrav Raptors at local dealers near me are all selling for $72-75k ------ eo3x0 I know a lot of folks are walking away from the puzzling aesthetic but I think that’s the point. Existing Tesla owners with a taste for existing design cues won’t push Tesla sales any further. They’ve got to expand the demographic and this design has a chance to do this. Think of all the wrangler, hummer, truck buyers who want a militaristic, rough, unpolished steel look and this is that flavor taken to an extreme. Other buyers still have the S3XYs to choose from so we can all have our favorite toys from the same company. No cannibalization. ~~~ newnewpdro Yeah, because that's what all the F150 buyers of the world really wanted, an angular flat-paneled ridiculous movie prop. This thing alienates far more than it attracts in the pickup truck market. ~~~ whysohardtoc Flat panel is what trucks have needed to go back to. Get a bad dent or the garbage is rusting out? Cut it out and weld some sheet on top. No need buy an entire door or go to a body shop. ~~~ IAmGraydon Are you being serious? This is a Tesla. You think people are going to repair them by welding steel sheet on top? ~~~ sgt Not immediately but if this thing is as indestructible as it looks, after 10 years of hard use, new battery pack, it's not hard to imagine that it'll be fixed by welding steel panels on it. ------ cgrealy I genuinely had to double check my calendar to make sure it wasn’t April 1st. I love the fact that Tesla are moving away from the boring, middle of the road designs of their previous models. But this.... this is just hideous. It doesn’t look tough or futuristic; it looks like something a 10 year old designed, and no, that’s not a good thing. ~~~ buildbuildbuild The divisiveness of this design is precisely what will propel its success. It's the coolest production car I've ever seen. And I expect >50% of the population to strongly disagree, mostly people from different generations. "Appalling" designs get free viral marketing; the trick is to still appeal to enough of your target market. This truck gets attention. It's a loud status statement that looks cheap to build, costs less than $50k. Well done Tesla. ~~~ _wzsf "production car" ~~~ buildbuildbuild Actually mass produced, not a concept car. ~~~ _wzsf This vehicle, of which Tesla expects to sell at $39k the cheapest model containing $33k of batteries, has definitely been mass-produced. ------ Danieru Does the US not have pedestrian safety standards? An all metal front grill must be horrible on any safety tests. I can only assume this is a joke and in a few hours Elon will do a "one more thing" before showing the real Tesla Pickup. This take on a pickup looks like some engineer accidentally left their Halo fan-art on the shared CAD file server. ~~~ iddqd I would love to see the frowns of the EU regulators when they wake up and see this. ~~~ koffiezet Doubt they're even going to try to introduce it on the EU market, there's very little demand for pickup trucks here... ~~~ YeGoblynQueenne In urban areas, yes. In rural areas- in Greece they're like a stereotype, farmers with pickup trucks. I know at least one person who has a pimped-up one with rollbars (bullbars?) and big lights and so on. ~~~ growse > In urban areas, yes. In rural areas- in Greece they're like a stereotype, > farmers with pickup trucks. I know at least one person who has a pimped-up > one with rollbars (bullbars?) and big lights and so on. Not to mention the farmers who buy these sorts of vehicles in Europe tend to value durability, reliability and ease of maintenance. From what I can tell, they all drive around in old Hiluxes. Having been stung by John Deere already, farmers aren't going to fall over themselves to buy something that they don't own, can't fix themselves and will likely be in the dealer for months if it breaks. This is a luxury status symbol. ------ chrissnell As a truck guy who has owned a lot of trucks and currently owns a 2017 Ram 2500 CTD 4x4 and a Land Rover Defender 110, I'm telling you right now: this is going to kill it. This is the suburban status item of 2022. I want to buy this right now. This has nearly the towing capacity of my Ram and will smoke my wife's Audi on the track. ~~~ alkonaut Do people in the rural/suburban US _really_ tow that much that often? Seeing the number of trucks just doesn’t make sense (especially given how few are towing anything). Is there a little measure of lifestyle signaling or macho involved in truck ownership, or towing capacity comparison? ~~~ michaelt Car companies don't limit themselves to selling people a car based on _what their life is like now_ , people have already got something that lets them do the things they currently do. They can market it based on what their life _could be like_ if they brought the car. Perhaps in vague, emotional terms. You too could be kayaking/mountain biking/skiing through picturesque countryside with your pretty, athletic friends... if you buy a Brand X SUV. Be confident in any situation. Whatever, wherever, whenever. Adventure starts here. Built tough. Driven by dreams. Past the pavement. Built for city roads and no roads. ~~~ AgloeDreams Spot on, this is also while many people back in the early 2010s were so turned off of laptops without CD drives, they might not ever use it, but they want to know they can. (ev dn through they didn't realize the tradeoff was battery) ------ eigenvalue I think it looks pretty awesome. The ATV that charges in the back as the "oh, and one more thing" moment was also great. I can see this being very popular. There is something very masculine and forward looking about the design. The interior shots on the website are also impressive-- I wonder why they didn't show that tonight in the demo (probably it's just a rendering and the prototype version has a bare-bones interior). The glass breaking was tough to watch though-- I'm sure it threw him off during the rest of the presentation. ~~~ oxplot See people getting a ride in it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDztHFa0_Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDztHFa0_Q) ~~~ mprev Skip to around 15 minutes in unless you like watching terrible smartphone footage of a bunch of people standing around waiting for the truck to turn up. ------ eitally As the current owner of a 2017 F150 long bed 4x4 with an ARE bed cap, I'm super-tempted by the Tesla. It's a total no-brainer for the people buying things like the Honda Ridgeline. It's less so for people who treat their truck like a work vehicle. Frankly, I don't think will cannibalize the existing P/U market as much as it will sway more people away from SUVs into [Cyber]trucks, especially if the back seat is as spacious as a normal full size truck's. ~~~ BuckRogers It has a 6.5' bed, and I look at the bed to judge whether it's used as a truck or not. Shortbeds are unusable and nearly useless for any real work. They're so frustrating, that I don't even consider a shortbed truck a truck at all. It's a family sedan masquerading as one. Tesla very wisely delivered a real truck. The only thing the Cybertruck needs is more colors. It's a little odd looking, like Robocop is coming to town, but it's time for changes in the market. The Model 3 converted me to viewing existing cars as dinosaurs, and this will probably transform the truck market as well. I grew up working on a farm, and while I'm a developer today, I still get my hands dirty. I'm in for one. ~~~ jasongill 6.5' is a short bed, though - it's the same length as most short-bed full-size 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickups. It's only a "long bed" when you compare it to midsize trucks like the Tacoma or Ridgeline, which is what this vehicle really is more akin to (especially the first generation Ridgeline, as you can't replace the bed on the Cybertruck or the old Ridgeline as it was a part of the unibody - not good when you accidentally overload or bend up the bed, unfortunately). Curious to see what the production version ends up like, but I don't know if this is really going to be taken seriously by people who need a "real" truck, at least in the current form. It's more of a weekend warrior vehicle right now, I'd say ~~~ jhayward 6.5' is a 'standard bed' in the F-150 line. 'Short bed' is 5.5', 'long bed' is 8'. ------ acidburnNSA Given the sledgehammer test, at least from the side that thing will be very aggressive in a crash. As in, if it runs into you, or if you run into it you will be more injured and/or dead. You generally want a little give on the road in both directions. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_incompatibility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_incompatibility) Looks sweet though. ~~~ ehnto That's a pretty common reason people cite for buying big SUVs. A belief that being the bigger car in an accident makes you safer. ~~~ kijin More mass = less acceleration when the same force is applied, and acceleration is what really kills you. You can't argue with physics. ~~~ tempestn Yep, if you're going to crash, better to be in as big a vehicle as possible. There is an argument to be made that smaller, more nimble, faster braking vehicles have a better chance of avoiding the crash in the first place, but the statistics do still show SUVs are safer overall, not just on a per-crash basis. ~~~ kijin Unfortunately, a vehicle can only be as nimble as its driver is. Most vehicles out there are driven by average, distracted, exhausted humans. About this time last year, I skidded and lost control of my car for a fraction of a second while changing lanes on a busy highway at 60mph. I'm alive and typing this not because I was nimble enough to recover from that situation, but because my car had electronic stability control -- a feature that is often not available in smaller models -- and a good set of winter tires. ~~~ pi-rat Don’t think I’ve driven a car without ESC, it’s been mandatory in new cars for almost a decade now. ~~~ kijin It depends on the country. ESC became mandatory in most large markets since sometime between 2012 and 2014, but lots of cars are older than that. Unlike phones, automobiles can easily last 15 years or more if well cared for. Which is great in one respect but also a nightmare when it comes to safety and emissions. ------ nimbius Great truck. Very exotic design, excellent price point, However, there was one statement that stood out as a MASSIVE mistake: >The glass is stronger than standard car glass Please stop doing this. Audi and Mercedes pulled this gimmicky crap about 8 years ago until they realized samaritans, Firefighters and EMT's need to be able to breech safety-glass windows in the event you become entrapped in the vehicle (possibly burning) during a major accident. You may also need to shatter a window in order to exit your vehicle if it becomes submerged in a body of water. Teslas are already unique enough to require their own first responder procedure to perform an advanced extraction. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4peF1EYke8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4peF1EYke8) Please, the vehicle already looks like the M577 Armored Personnel Carrier from Aliens. it outruns a porsche, it out pulls an f150. Youve ticked all the masculine boxes truck owners want for this thing. Dont turn it into a rolling coffin. ~~~ hooloovoo_zoo Not sure what you're worried about; all you need to break in is a lightly thrown metal ball. ~~~ mattrp I’m hoping for Jeremy clarkson to take a whack at “killing a Tesla” a la the infamous hilux that wouldn’t die: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk) ~~~ rerpha Considering the first part of that challenge is that they submerge the hilux in the sea, I can't see the tesla holding up too well. Would love to see it though! ~~~ Klathmon I wouldn't be so sure. While you obviously don't want to test it, there are videos of Model 3's and Model S's being driven through water over the windshield and were fine. IIRC there's a video somewhere of one of the Tesla models actually floating when the water got too deep. ------ sytelus Stupid question: what’s up with trucks in urban areas? I understand the utility of a truck in rural/farm setting but never figured why folks want to lug around that pointless empty half while living in cities. Two of the folks I know who owns trucks have used empty halfs probably twice in a year when bringing home some furniture but that too could have delivered free by the store. Again, as I said, stupid question. ~~~ wongarsu Trucks in urban settings are an exclusively American thing. Because of the chicken tax [1], a 20% import duty on trucks, foreign trucks are unprofitable in the US. This lack of competition incentivizes American auto makers to create as much domestic demand for trucks as possible. 1: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax) ~~~ laurent123456 I'd expect the lack of competition, especially from Japan, would make the American trucks more expensive and less reliable. ~~~ Dig1t There is actually a fair amount of competition from Japan. The Toyota Tundra/Tacoma, Nissan Titan/Frontier, and Honda Ridgeline are all popular and in some ways better trucks than their American counterparts. I think many "truck people" are also people who tend to prefer domestically-made goods; in the same way that people shopping at Home Depot are more likely to buy products with the "Made in the USA" sticker on them. ~~~ maxwell The Tundra is the only full-size truck made in Texas. The Titan is made in Mississippi. The Ridgeline in Alabama. Those who identify as Republicans seem to indicate willingness to pay more for Made in USA than Democrats according to the polls I've seen. [https://morningconsult.com/2017/11/21/poll-support-for- purch...](https://morningconsult.com/2017/11/21/poll-support-for-purchasing- made-in-usa-goods-jumps-but-dont-credit-trump/) [https://morningconsult.com/wp- content/uploads/2017/11/171016...](https://morningconsult.com/wp- content/uploads/2017/11/171016_crosstabs_BRANDS_v2_AP-1.pdf) ~~~ jcranmer There's a bit of irony in that the Japanese car companies make all their cars (destined for the US market) in the US, whereas the American car companies tend to prefer Mexico. ------ waiseristy I feel like I am taking crazy pills with the amount of good sentiment to this design. This thing is absolutely fugly. The guys over at Rivian must be having a party right now. ~~~ jader201 It looks like the attempt of a “futuristic” vehicle in an early 90’s low polygon video game. Reading these responses makes me think I’m out of the loop on some joke. Seriously. I had no doubt when I came to the discussion that all the comments would be about how ugly it is. Maybe this is one of those white/gold vs. black/blue dress things. Or the “yanni” thing. I’m blown away by any of the comments that find the design appealing. ~~~ sincerely >It looks like the attempt of a “futuristic” vehicle in an early 90’s low polygon video game. In a world where every manufacturer makes cars that look basically the same as every other car in the world, I'm fucking _stoked_ on this. ~~~ riffraff they don't, people just buy similar looking models because weird cars generally don't sell well, with some exceptions. ~~~ sincerely Ok, please find me the two most different looking trucks that I can buy (no concept models). ~~~ killjoywashere Chevrolet SSR vs AMG HMMWV pickup with SAM missile battery (1) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR) (2) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humvee#/media/File:SAM- HMMWV.j...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humvee#/media/File:SAM-HMMWV.jpg) ~~~ jsight OTOH, the SSR had a foot bed? Its not like it was just a great truck that looked bad, it wasn't actually a good truck. ~~~ jsight Err, four foot bed. ------ atonse You couldn't invent a more polar opposite of Steve Jobs than Elon Musk. VERY disorganized presenting. Badly rehearsed. Awkward speech. Speech is almost never in sync with slides. Demos failed spectacularly. The rest of the event was him with a backdrop of two broken windows. They didn't show the interior, and barely talked about the bed. Is this even good as a pickup truck? Is there enough storage? This all seemed hastily put together (probably as a response to the other pickup truck press). But for an Elon presentation, this is pretty normal (high awkwardness). Signed, Model 3 Driver (who loves his car). ~~~ canada_dry Can someone that has actually worked closely with Musk confirm: is his thought process and speech as utterly disjointed as happens in most of his presentations? Or, is this a _nutty professor_ kinda of shtick that Elon thinks makes him seem more personable? His presentations are painful to watch. ~~~ luckydata He's not a native English speaker and that has an impact. ~~~ newsbinator He's a native English speaker. > There were compulsory subjects like Afrikaans, and I just didn’t see the > point of learning that. It seemed ridiculous. I'd get a passing grade and > that was fine. [https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=zRXjCwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA43&ot...](https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=zRXjCwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA43&ots=F6xbYjrVnK&dq=There%20were%20compulsory%20subjects%20like%20Afrikaans%2C%20and%20I%20just%20didn%E2%80%99t%20see%20the%20point%20of%20learning%20that.%20It%20seemed%20ridiculous.%20I'd%20get%20a%20passing%20grade%20and%20that%20was%20fine.&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q=There%20were%20compulsory%20subjects%20like%20Afrikaans,%20and%20I%20just%20didn%E2%80%99t%20see%20the%20point%20of%20learning%20that.%20It%20seemed%20ridiculous.%20I'd%20get%20a%20passing%20grade%20and%20that%20was%20fine.&f=false) ------ gexla Yeah, a lot of people talking about how ugly it is. But that's exactly what a pick-up has always been. A big ugly thing with a bed in the back and a lot of utility most people didn't even use. Some models over the years have looked decent. Many have (Ford especially) have been dog ugly. I could see this thing taking off, though not sure how rural truck owners would take to electric. Edit: On second thought, rural truck owners must go through a ton of gas. I bet they would love to own something like this. Edit edit: I also love that this thing can take a beating on the exterior. You don't have to worry about scratches in the paint or dents from shopping cart accidents. ~~~ 01100011 > that's exactly what a pick-up has always been. A big ugly thing As a former truck owner I have to disagree. I like modern trucks and with a few exceptions think they've looked great since they were invented. The truck shown by Tesla does not appeal to me. Frankly I think it's odd how one-sided the upvotes are going in this thread. I really don't think Tesla would bother astroturfing on HN so I dunno... I guess HN folks really like the design. Personally I just don't see it having wide appeal, _especially_ among truck owners. A Ford F150 for example, looks 'masculine'. The Tesla truck looks... sterile? It's like comparing a sledgehammer to a scalpel. ~~~ gexla I'm assuming by "upvotes" you're referring to positive reactions to the design as opposed to the HN voting buttons. The design, of course, is subjective. We'll be seeing professional commentary which may sway our opinion. I would be interested to see if there were design constraints which weighed heavily in the final design. There's a prism of ugly and this truck fits in the region which I can live with. I have mostly found Ford designs to be ugly (1995 for example.) I also feel that truck designs have mostly been similar. If I find X year Ford to be ugly, then it's relative to the same year of Chevy. There's also utility ugly and the sort of ugly which attempts to be artistic but which fails into something I would be embarrassed to drive (curves and paint schemes which aren't meant to be functional and just look bad.) The Tesla Cybertruck has the feel of minimalist utility. It's also bold and different. Unlike the Rivian, it's not trying to be anything like the current state of the art of trucks. I think it will have a lot of appeal for being different and for having crazy specs. It's ugly, but I want one. I have been seeing good comments pointing out problems. For example, it doesn't seem to be accommodating to accessories. Maybe this is something which will get worked out before it hits production. History will judge this thing better than we can. Regardless of our opinion, it will be interesting to see if the design sticks. ~~~ look_lookatme It's funny that you choose the 1995 style because that style of F-150 is enduring enough to have its own short hand amongst truck people, the OBS (Old Body Style). The OBS generations of the F-150 are considered to this day to be beautiful trucks with lasting aesthetics by many truck folks and you'll see a lot of well preserved or rebuilt OBS bodies out there. Certainly far more than the body style that succeeded it (1997). Tastes are subjective, I agree, but I want to point out on, at least this small matter, how much yours diverge from a lot of people that purchase trucks. I think history will judge mostly whether this appealed to people in a venn diagram of truck owners and not truck owners who are looking for very aggressive and unorthodox large status vehicles and are underserved by the truck SUV market. ------ nedsma I find it awesome. Kudos to Tesla for willingness to experiment with form and functionality. The car industry nowadays is all too predictable and boring. Great job Elon. ~~~ nikofeyn i read predictable and boring as reliable and safe. and many companies are innovating in design. ~~~ nedsma Sadly, that's not the case. Car companies are just trying to catch up with whatever seems to sell at the moment. And if there's a new model, it is usually related to a some "successful model" from the past or an existing model is given a crossover look. And even these new cars have too many issues. ------ Reedx So many people tripping over themselves to criticize this. But hey, everyone is talking about it. $0 ad spend. It elicits strong reactions. People seem to love it or hate it. Far better than indifference. Not a truck owner, nor in the market, but I appreciate bold moves and deviation from the norm. ~~~ cprayingmantis You know what would've generated as much conversation? Just an electric truck with towing capability and decent range. They didn't need to make it looks so awful to generate conversation. ~~~ grecy ... and you know, Rivian already did that, and the base model costs $20,000 more than the base telsa. The flat surfaces and not-stamped stainless are about ease of manufacture - [https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric- pi...](https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup- engineering-manufacturing) ------ zshift As a car guy, this is an amazing truck. Dual-motor can easily tow track car and all necessary gear. Built-in compressor means you can use air-tools on the go without a generator. Maybe even fit a quick jack in the trunk or trailer. AND it drives itself to the track. Never need to bring spare batteries for tools. It’s insane that it can do this, and likely win every drag race against street cars. All while blasting the Bladerunner theme on max volume. ------ Grazester This thing may be ugly but there are other concerns for people using this like a real truck. -The bed is not easily accessible from the sides -It's unibody(ask Honda about that) -It's stainless steel which would make repairing difficult. You will now have to paint that raw steel after hammering out any dents after an accident just like the Delorean ~~~ JaRail Why would you paint it? It's not painted in the first place. ~~~ Grazester Do you know what is involved in "hammering" out dents in a collision and how the metal looks after? Also you may need to then fill some surface irregularities with a filler. This is why Deloreans that got into accidents were usually painted. Of course if you can easily replace an entire panel with a new one, this can be done. On cars the rear quarter panel cant be "replaced" like the front quarter panel which is just bolted on. ------ servercobra The design looks like a prepper's wet dream. But the pricing is incredible. Like $3k more than the Model Y's base model. And half as much as Rivian's base model, with the top end model costing the same as Rivian' base. Cybertruck wins in every spot but design against the Rivian, IMO. Frankly, some people I know that buy trucks would buy the Cybertruck because it looks badass (to some), like a stealth fighter. I kept waiting for the sledgehammer guy to hit it and the walls to fall off, with a real truck inside. ~~~ new_realist Rivian will ship two or three years before this thing. ~~~ mulcahey Doubt it. They have no experience with volume production. (Unless they basically outsource production to Ford.) ------ syshum AS a Truck Guy who has owned a lot of Trucks and Currently owns a F-150 XLT 4x4 and has Owns no less than 8 other Trucks and SUV's from Ford.... This is going to flop, big time. This is the worst looking Truck I have seen in a LONG time, this will not appeal to people that buy the Best selling Truck on the market, The F-150. I have no interest in buying this, and i would not drive it even if they gave me one for free. Sure the performance is there, ofcourse when Ford and other manufactures release their Electric Trucks then when can do a Apple to Apple comparison. I will be waiting on the Electric F-150, which should have comparable specs to the Rivian, and I would much rather have a Rivian Truck than this monstrosity ~~~ formichunter Why is this being downvoted? It's an opposing view and they are being honest. I ordered a Model X, getting it in two weeks, and am looking for a pickup truck to eventually move to after the Model X. I would not buy this, sorry. People like me will compare Rivian to CyberTruck and I think it's a natural comparison. We aren't going to compare traditional pickups, though, because people like me don't want an ICE pickup truck. With that said, why would I not buy a Rivian? The plan is to wait till they've produced it for a year, compare to current electric pickup market, take advantage of Federal Tax credit of Rivian and evaluate if it's worth it. I am the suburban guy, I am a Tesla buyer, and I pride myself on engineering + beautiful design. Tesla HAD that for all their vehicles, imo. Cybertruck is a niche vehicle, I wish it well, I grew up in the 80's so it is nostalgic but omg it makes me want to vomit. Sorry, I wanted to buy it, really did, but 80's design for cars, clothes, and hairstyles was a nightmare that I couldn't wake up from, kinda like the shirt that stopped halfway down your waist. I am not an 80's fan....born 1977. ~~~ SuoDuanDao In my case, while I like the aesthetic, I think aesthetic considerations aren't supposed to figure into buying a truck. Trucks exist to do work, buying one on aesthetics seems counter to the whole reason to own a truck in the first place. ~~~ jhayward > _I think aesthetic considerations aren 't supposed to figure into buying a > truck_ Oh, geez. "Truck guys" in the US are some of the most opinionated, style- conscious folks you will ever meet in an automotive context. They're really something if you ever find yourself hanging out with them. ~~~ randcraw I believe you. But truck guys don't discuss the style of their truck, how pretty it is. They brag about how they abused it or carried unreal loads or took it where no road legal vehicle should ever go. Even if the Cybertruck kicks ass on the road, it's not going to impress these guys. And if they're the target market for this new truck, Tesla's in trouble. ~~~ jhayward No, they really do talk incessantly about style and looks. Really. Including flamewars about which manufacturer has 'ugly' or 'beautiful' characteristics. ------ rootusrootus At first I was dumbfounded. Like, they cannot be serious. Then after a little while of looking at it, I thought, well, perhaps it is just crazy enough to work. Definitely thinking outside the box. Then a bit later in the evening, I was struck by how in the space of a couple hours it had aged in my eyes, and it wasn't aging well. As soon as the 'interesting' wore off, all I can see is how boring the design really is. By itself, maybe not such a big deal, pickups aren't meant to be exciting. They are successful because of their utility. King of the road, riding high, the modern incarnation of a 70s land yacht, very spacious inside, well appointed, and incidentally able to haul stuff when you want, pull stuff when you want. The very definition of function over form. The opposite of Cybertruck. I'll wait and see how it plays out, since this is obviously a prototype of a prototype (read MotorTrend's writeup, they had early access and it was still coming together in the last couple weeks). The windows aren't street legal, the bumpers are not street legal, almost certainly the headlights and taillights aren't, etc. A lot of the actual finished product has yet to be designed, so I will withhold judgement until we see what it turns out to be. ~~~ montjoy I had a similar then different reaction . First I didn’t think it was real. Then I thought it was hideous. Now after looking at and reading about it more I’m starting to like it. I’m hoping Tesla starts using more of the same design cues in their other products. ------ rdoherty I agree that electric trucks are important to combat climate change, but wow. If their goal is to sell to the market that buys pickup trucks, I think the styling is way off the mark. Huge, beastly trucks are a status symbol and signalling to others that you are are certain demographic. Same reason some people buy cheap cars and add shiny wheels and lights. Same reason some people buy BMWs and Mercedes. These are all part of socioeconomic norms. I don't see how the normal truck crowd will latch on to this. The specs are pretty impressive though. 500 mile range got my attention. ~~~ tgsovlerkhgsel Is the normal truck crowd going to latch onto a $70k truck? I think this is going to resonate really well with techies. Not a huge demographic, but one that can afford it. The market for sci-fi/cyberpunk cars won't be huge, but in exchange, this looks like it'll capture _all_ of that market, as opposed to a small slice of a more conventional one. ~~~ losvedir When I lived in rural Missouri, I was shocked at how many of my neighbors and colleagues were shelling out $70k for their pickup trucks. The price here is not a concern at all. The design.... not so sure about that. ------ fumar I appreciate Tesla for taking the pick up truck use cases and building something from scratch. This is the first pick up truck I’ve ever thought to myself “makes sense and I want it.” The ICE trucks have needy engines and most of the time the power is unused. The air suspension seems like a natural fit and I’m surprised it’s not already common place. I would love to take the Cybertruck off-roading. I’m also excited to see these on the road. It will make my inner kid feel like we finally made it to the future. ~~~ notatoad >The air suspension seems like a natural fit and I’m surprised it’s not already common place. IIRC this was a thing on land rovers back in the day, and was notoriously unreliable. It's a great idea in theory, but much more difficult to get right than a bunch of steel springs. ~~~ kmlx the new defender is back, and looks pretty good: [https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-land- rover-d...](https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-land-rover- defender-2019) ------ aaronbrethorst It kind of looks like a Pontiac Aztek to me—if the Aztek happened to exist in the 2019 of Blade Runner and not the 2001 of reality. [https://www.thrillist.com/cars/the-pontiac-aztec-was-the- big...](https://www.thrillist.com/cars/the-pontiac-aztec-was-the-biggest- failure-in-automotive-history) ~~~ xxxtentachyon This feels more like if Master Chief drove an Aztek ~~~ aaronbrethorst I hadn’t thought about this looking like the Aztek of Warthogs, but you’re right. ------ rhegart Performance is nuts as is affordability, looks like an evil cop or military truck in a dystopian future though. ~~~ tomc1985 For the 30 seconds I saw before the stream went private that car-truck-thing looked like something out of _Total Recall_ ~~~ iamcreasy I watched the whole thing. The stream never went private. ~~~ aarongolliver It did, and it is now. This is one of those things that's trivial to check before you tell someone they're wrong. Not everyone could watch it exactly live. Everyone who was was kicked out. ~~~ iamcreasy Probably it is now. But not when it was live. ------ bonestamp2 Aesthetically speaking, it's a truck version of a DeLorean... which is growing on me the more I look at it. Also, I don't know how they think they're going to get away with that tailgate design in the US. I love it, but the government doesn't allow brakelights to be on a moveable piece of bodywork (even though they have redundant lights under it). It's the same reason the back of the Ferrari California was so ugly... Ferrari learned this fact too late in the development process: [https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/heres-hilarious-story- fe...](https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/heres-hilarious-story-ferrari- californias-brake-lights-261795) ~~~ drfrank Aren't physical side mirrors also still required in the US? ~~~ bonestamp2 Yes, good catch. A driver's side mirror is required, passenger's side is optional (but recommended). But, there is some lobbying going on right now to allow cameras in place of mirrors (GM specifically is trying to get the new Corvette C8 rear view camera approved, which I'm guessing won't happen for launch in early 2020). ------ Pxtl I'm a child of the 80s. I remember StarFox and the F-117 stealth plane being the neatest stuff ever. The old lambo countache with the faceted shape that was almost starwars-y and was the coolest thing on wheels. I'm nostalgic about those things. So this polygonal look is targeting my demo. ... That is the goddamned ugliest vehicle I've ever seen. ~~~ beefield > That is the goddamned ugliest vehicle I've ever seen. Let me try to beat that: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Multipla#/media/File:Fiat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Multipla#/media/File:Fiat_Multipla_front_20080825.jpg) ~~~ munificent What I find fascinating is how _strong_ my negative visceral reaction to that thing is. It's a car. Who gives a shit whether it looks "good"? What even _is_ my internal metric for "looks good"? I have no idea, but, God, this thing is revolting. My hunch is that this is because we use some of the same mental wiring for processing human faces to process the front of a car. (Automotive designers refer to the front of a car as its "face".) So we think it's ugly because some of the same wiring that recoils to disfiguring human faces is kicking in. I just stumbled onto: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26181746](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26181746) ~~~ spyder It looks like two cars on top of eachother and if it's a face then it reminds me of this unsettling face illusion: [https://i.imgur.com/5lslbsJ.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/5lslbsJ.jpg) ~~~ cr0sh There's also that Chinese baby a few years back who had a severe form of "transverse facial cleft" deformity... ------ pier25 The more I look at it the more I like it. Even if you don't like it you have to applaud the vision here. The vast majority of car companies are too afraid of getting out of the conformist design taste of the majority of people. ------ leesec Well there's a lot of people saying they hate it so I'll just throw in my hat to say I think it's incredible. The truck bed opening up was something out of a sci-fi movie. Looking forward to smoking F-150's off the line with this. ------ arminiusreturns I grew up with GMC and Ford trucks in the mountains and in Texas (Texans love their trucks), and am in need of a truck (for towing, of which this has amazing specs with the mid and high end models) at the moment. I've been looking and looking not wanting to get taken advantage of, and had mostly settled on a few years old Tundra... but I love this thing, and also love the ATV, and so I am seriously considering this as my next vehicle purchase. As a very security and privacy conscious person, my main quibble has been that I don't like drive by wire products. I don't want to get Michael Hastings'ed... but the fact is even the big truck companies are starting to get rid of mechanical throttle, so I might as well give up on that is how it feels. What better way to merge my mountain man and hacker sides than with a Tesla truck. Now if I only had the money laying around... and I do think many of you underestimate how much in truck culture having something that looks different can be the biggest part of being "cool". I got more compliments on my Suzuki Samurai with a lift and 36ers than you would ever imagine. I blacked out a 91 YJ and also got nothing but compliments. This thing is going to do well, mark my words. I prob won't go get a cord of wood in it, (I might) but that's what the old 84 beat up GMC camper special is for. ------ bbayer I understand what Tesla is doing here. Outer shell manufacturing cost is very low. No paint, minimal bending process. Just laser cut the material and it is ready to be mounted. If you want to manufacture something in a low resource environment ( like Mars ) it might be the clever move. ~~~ sulZ Are you implying that this truck will be manufactured on Mars at some point? ~~~ bbayer Yes. I suspect that production line will be designed to be built on Mars. Design of the car also looks like it is built for high dust environments (non- flat rooftop). Solar charging, shell with same material with Starship also supports this thesis. ------ hclalpha I bet one of the key factors for this thing to be on the road safely was the development of some kind of unbreakable glass for the huge front window, so they "had to" make this new type of resistant glass. Some "yes man" at the upper management level must've decided to skip constrained material testing (Glass dissipates energy much differently when it is in a frame rather than just loose... pay close attention at the ball drop demo and you'll see the glass jump a few inches) ~~~ codezero Yep. Also they were constantly tightening the screws holding down the glass in the demo which I though stood out. ------ bchociej Better utility than a truck? Excuse me? 6.5' bed and you can't even reach over the sides to get stuff. No stake pockets or any apparent affordance for installation of racks in the bed either. However, I am a fan of a factory tonneau cover and what looks like a built-in ramp in the tailgate. But there's no avoiding that the thing is just ugly as can be. Frankly I'm just waiting for an all-electric replacement for the bigger Tacoma / smaller F150 niche. I don't want or need an 80s stainless steel wedge that can tow a 747. Rivian doesn't appear to be interested in that segment. Toyota isn't going to do it until 2025 at best. I was hoping Tesla might, but I'm not surprised that their first foray barely qualifies as a truck. ~~~ WhompingWindows It's more powerful than a truck, better for the environment, has the capability of running tools without a generator, and is actually appealing to non-truck people -- you're right, it barely qualifies as a truck. And that's a good thing -- we need FAR less trucks in the world. ------ bt3 Not withstanding the grandeur of the truck, its unique look, and specs; I love Elon's composure following the somewhat failed glass test that broke both windows on the vehicle during the live unveiling. ~~~ 34679 After announcing the prices, I was really hoping he'd say "..and that's without broken windows." ------ 34679 That's a truck only if you consider a Subaru Baja a truck. If you want a real crack at the F-150's market share, it has to be usable for work. If you can't put a stack of plywood or drywall in the back and still have room for tools and a ladder, it's useless as a work truck. Will this thing even accept a ladder rack? Has a single person on the design team ever spent a single day working a blue collar job that requires a truck? ~~~ rubber_duck I don't know about the car market in the US enough but Tesla seems to be in the premium segment - are the trucks people buy for this kind of work in the price range of this thing ? ~~~ mdorazio 100% absolutely. See [1]. People spend an absolutely stupid amount on trucks - basically no one gets the base model and the average sale price for an F150 is north of $45k. It's one of the reasons Ford is focusing on the truck segment - the margins are way higher than for mass market sedans. [1] [https://www.kbb.com/car-news/pricing-your-next- ford-f-150-it...](https://www.kbb.com/car-news/pricing-your-next- ford-f-150-it-could-cost-60000-or-more/2100005698/) ~~~ CelestialTeapot Yes, people foolishly gravitate toward trucks and SUVs, fattening the wallets of the car manufacturers and fueling the insanely stupid 7 year auto loan industry [1]. Of course, this is also disastrous for mitigating carbon emissions [2]. Additionally, they are a menace on the roadway through increasing pedestrian accidents and death [3] and likely increasing cyclist deaths [4]. They should be much more heavily regulated, for commercial use only, and require special licensing requiring regular accident avoidance training/testing. 1\. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-20/america-s...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-20/america- s-truck-love-means-long-term-auto-loans-are-here-to-stay) 2\. [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng- interactive/2019/...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng- interactive/2019/oct/25/suvs-second-biggest-cause-of-emissions-rise-figures- reveal) 3\. [https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/05/09/study-links-rise- of-s...](https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/05/09/study-links-rise-of-suvs-to- the-pedestrian-safety-crisis/) 4\. [https://nypost.com/2019/10/24/transportation-chief-says- suv-...](https://nypost.com/2019/10/24/transportation-chief-says-suv- popularity-gentrification-behind-cyclist-deaths/) ------ mffnbs Elon walked off stage to kill the guy who designed the glass. ~~~ oxplot ye, Elon was sweating like crazy right after the blunder. I also thought the presentation could have been rehearsed a little bit better as the slides seem to be off most of the time (I assume Elon is just way too busy to rehearse these things). ~~~ leesec This is how every Tesla presentation goes. It's never been about Steve Jobs level presentation polish, it's always been about the quality of the product. ~~~ new_realist Especially the glass. ~~~ adventured The glass was extremely impressive. You obviously saw the height drop tests demonstrating the Tesla glass as vastly superior to traditional auto glass. ------ rgbrenner I’m surprised to see the positive comments about the design.. I saw this and the first thing I thought was: that’s the ugliest vehicle I’ve ever seen. No exaggeration. ~~~ emptyfile If it makes you feel a bit more sane, HN is the only website Ive seen so far where most people aren't ridiculing this. I for sure can't believe anyone would ever build this or that anyone would ever like it. ------ James0x57 What about that "Cybergirl" that introduced Elon? She called him her "creator". Just an actress (Grimes) on video with weird almost-flailing gestures or was it an animated AI from a secret Elon project made in the likeness of Grimes? [https://youtu.be/0y3wE0pgXcM?t=131](https://youtu.be/0y3wE0pgXcM?t=131) For real. When she's done talking her expression just goes full neutral like she's waiting for input. edit: this is not criticism, I loved it, I am genuinely curious if that introduction was artificial. Felt uncanny valley. ~~~ tiborsaas She's an artist and Elon's girlfriend, it was probably her idea to appear like an AI hologram. ~~~ spectrum1234 Wait are they really still dating and is that really Grimes? ~~~ tiborsaas I think that's her and that would be really weird if they stopped dating :) ------ danimal88 I'm worried about being on the road with these. If they are as indestructable as suggested/demonstrated, it seems like everyone else on the road becomes the crumple zone for both vehicles. Perhaps the anti-dent is different from crumple zone considerations, but definitely a bit intimidating to share the road with. And does it only come in one color (stainless)? ~~~ sp332 There might be a practical reason it's not painted: [https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/1/18291091/tesla-epa-fine- ha...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/1/18291091/tesla-epa-fine-hazardous- waste-fremont-factory) ~~~ rcMgD2BwE72F So you think a $31,000 fine matters more than a $200,000,000 paint shop? That isn't even counting the cost of painting the cars (paint, labor…). Source: [https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric- pi...](https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup- engineering-manufacturing) ------ etaioinshrdlu Who would have thought that the comically ugly renders of a few weeks ago would turn out to be spot on? This was jaw dropping. ~~~ leesec Would like to see a render that looks like this did. ------ Al-Khwarizmi So, from the comments here and elsewhere, it's a Marmite thing. A majority seem to hate the design but a significant minority absolutely loves it. That doesn't look bad for sales. I'd rather have a group of enthusiasts that love the product, and a group of haters, than have everyone going "meh". Firstly because many of the enthusiasts will probably buy the product, and secondly because controversy is free advertising. Personally I do like the aesthetics, although I'm not in the demographic that buys trucks. ------ profitnot The price point is incredibly low for the capacity and performance. Go price a high-end Ram/F-series/Chevy and be amazed that you can easily spend 65K on something you'd feel comfortable taking a date to dinner in. I was shocked by the first look, but the practicality is there. I'd buy one, if I wasn't in the "post-payoff" period of my SUV. If the incentives are there and fuel costs rise, I think I could convince my spouse. ------ starpilot The tall, angled side fins above the bed are a dealbreaker for me. Makes it too hard to reach in, also more awkward to climb into from the side by standing on a tire. It sucks that you wouldn't be able to rest anything horizontally on them without having it slide off. I'm curious as to how well it'll hold a rack: [https://www.autoaccessoriesgarage.com/Truck-Racks-Van- Racks/...](https://www.autoaccessoriesgarage.com/Truck-Racks-Van-Racks/ROLA- Haul-Your-Might-Truck-Bed-Rack). I wonder if this will be another form > function, like with the Tesla Model X whose gull wing doors make it impossible to hold a roof rack. ------ dchuk This is nearly April fools joke level. Ignoring the individual aesthetic, it just stands in such stark contrast to the rest of the curved, sleek vehicles in their fleet. Surprising. ~~~ matt-attack I literally checked my watch to see the date. ~~~ nine_k Yes, the year must have been of some cyberpunk future, because the look is right from there. I can't but notice how the "futuristic" car designs from my childhood are now pretty common in mass-produced cars. I suggest the recent sci-fi movie esthetics are going to be common soon enough, and this truck is an example. ~~~ vineyardmike Because all the people that grew up reading/watching sci-fi ended up as CEOs and important people in business. ------ dewey While I generally think Tesla cars are pretty ugly and boring I can't understand the criticism for this one that much. Finally something that looks a bit different than all the VW and Audis you see on the street, reminds me of the Countach or brutalist buildings. ~~~ spectrum1234 Do you honestly think both the S and 3 are ugly? ~~~ dewey Yes, but taste is subjective so I know I'm probably not in the majority with that opinion here. ------ mikenew Watching this was... cerebral. The impression I get is that Tesla made this truck because they wanted to, and they don't really care too much what people think of it. ~~~ smoovb They made it to erase any doubt about an electric truck being tough. ~~~ new_realist Or practical. That bed is insanely bad. ~~~ profitnot Why, exactly? ~~~ tapatio It’s on 6.5 feet. You can’t put an existing truck camper on it. ~~~ profitnot What a great opportunity for the Aftermarket market. ~~~ tapatio Yeah, I’m sure the truck camper companies like Lance are going to jump on this. Hopefully they design something that matches the CyberTruck design and integrates seamlessly. ------ noonespecial I was kind of hoping the Tesla pickup was going to be a reality. I was thinking of a cross between A model 3 and an F150 and was legitimately excited. If this is the "Tesla Pickup" count me as bitterly disappointed. ~~~ closeparen This [0] is the Tesla pickup. [0] [https://youtu.be/R35gWBtLCYg](https://youtu.be/R35gWBtLCYg) ~~~ fotbr I've got a truck (an older Tacoma) and too many hobbies that make it hard to give up, so I'll likely always have a truck. If Tesla had introduced a factory version of Simone's, I'd be screaming at them to shut up and take my money. This thing...I'm sorry, I can't get over the styling. I love the numbers, and don't even find the pricing to be too horrible, but there's no away I'll have something that looks like that. Maybe Tesla truck 2.0 will be worth looking at. ~~~ simonebrunozzi What's "Simone" in this context? (my name is Simone and I just got curious) ~~~ closeparen Simone Giertz, the Queen of Shitty Robots. ------ mberning The branding and aesthetic of this truck is so untesla it is alarming. Trucks are very expensive nowadays so this could be good market for them. Especially if people buy them for the novelty. As far as actual work is concerned I feel that this will be roughed up very badly in no time, and being a unibody of sorts will present some problems and expense to repair. It’s pretty much the opposite of what you would want from a pure work standpoint. Something that is built more like an overgrown UTV would be better for Real work. ------ hongzi Interesting, the no rear-view mirror design is already approved by regulations and being deployed. Roadster shouldn't be far now +.+ ~~~ kissickas No side-view mirrors, you mean? Or is this lacking a rear-view mirror? ~~~ skiman10 The rear-view mirror is a display that shows the back camera feed. In the prototype at least. ~~~ kissickas Interesting. It's also lacking side-view mirrors, but I haven't heard anything about how they managed that. ------ emptybits Thoughts on towing. (I like to RV.) * Its capacity of 7,500+ lbs isn't too shabby. Not F150/1500 class. But Jeep Gladiator territory, which is another much-awaited domestic truck getting some attention. * I'm assuming the 250+ mile range drops significantly when towing. * When camped at sites serviced by electricity, it's often 30/50 amp service and unmetered. Good for recharging! I'm unlikely to jump on board yet, but this is a beautiful experiment and there will be many trucking niche users watching! ~~~ 205guy Please don't be that EV owner that mooches off of "free" sockets. Or at least ask first. RV parks aren't expecting people to use $5-10 of electricity overnight, and they'll get upset at EV owners. Just get the 200kwH model (my est for the 500 mi range), plug the RV into the truck, and go boondocking for a week with A/C, fridge, induction cooker, and no propane. Extra bonus if the truck supports charging from the 2kW array on the roof of the RV. ~~~ ryacko It is tax detectable to donate directly to a public government, if you feel uncomfortable about it. ------ XorNot The 8x4 sheet is the question for me about this. If I can get 8x4 inside this flat, then I will absolutely buy one no questions. ------ foxes Maybe this is controversial, but I really like the aesthetic. It definitely has a futuristic, industrial cyberpunk vibe. I wouldn't call it "pretty", but it's distinctive. ------ ijidak Ok. Not sure what to make of this line: > With the ability to pull near infinite mass That's the opening line from one of the slides on the slide show... That seems a like a bit of an overstatement... Just a tad. ------ usaphp This looks so fucking good, like a fuck you to traditional car manufacturers, I think it's bold and very very unusual. I would rather see these type of cars in the future than what Chevy Bolt, Prius look like. Really looking forward to seeing this on the streets. ------ ranDOMscripts This is the first mainstream security truck at an affordable price. The sales on this are going to be higher than anybody expects. Every rapper, drug dealer, and dirtbag politician that doesn't want to go out like Tupac will buy one. The weekend warriors who had to give up their Hummers will buy one. The Mexican/Colombian cartels will all drive them because it's already bullet resistant but with that power, it can easily be modded with an extra 1/4 inch plate. The regular folks who live in places where carjacking is common (Brazil, Venezuela, South Africa, etc.) will buy them. It's going to sell very, very well. ~~~ grandridge Elon, is that you? ------ vincnetas So additionally to "Bioweapon Defense Mode" this will also be invisible to radars? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology) ------ vsskanth As an automotive engineer my mind is unable to process this as real. Are they being serious? Very very risky move on styling ------ revscat I’m unsure what to think. Kudos for breaking the mold, I guess. ------ GhostVII I wonder what it will look like when it is actually produced, doubt it passes US standards in it's current form. Needs some mirrors at the very least, although maybe at the time of release cameras will be a legal replacement. ------ patrec All those sharp edges must make running over pedestrians even more fun than with a plain SUV or truck. Looks easy to clean, too. ------ vgchh Not sure why I would buy a Model Y. I love this thing. It feels safer, carries 6 people and is a full utility. And all of that with gorgeously edgy styling. Can we please move this up before the Model Y Tesla? ------ maest That thing looks like it would do a lot of damage if it hit a pedestrian. Aren't there regulations that are supposed to enforce designs that increase the survival chances of people hit by cars? ------ WheelsAtLarge Quote from the website "You will be able to complete your configuration as production nears in late 2021. Tri Motor AWD production is expected to begin in late 2022." Ya right, production starts in 2 years. I would guess 4 yrs and I know nothing about car production. But I do know that just getting the subcontractors in order will take more than a year even if you have an assembly line in place already. Why is Tesla so optimistic about timelines? It just hurts it's reputation when they are years late. ~~~ spartanscrub They are literally ahead of schedule with their next vehicle; the Model Y. ------ seibelj I'm not the one who would buy this as I live in Boston and drive a tiny car. But I thought it was really cool. Reminds me of futuristic cars from 80's action movies. ------ lazyguy2 Finally. A 1980's videogame car. The future really is now. ------ Gravityloss Is it a good idea to make it so shiny? Coupled with the slab sides, you get quite strong reflections. Could be annoying at best to other drivers and potentially dangerous. ------ xyst Eccentric billionaires, got to love em. I was looking for an electric truck to buy and was hoping this Cybertruck would be a replacement, but I think I’ll stick with my gas sipping sedan for awhile longer after seeing this announcement. I’ll wait for the next iterations or a better alternative offered by the competition. I just can’t see myself driving this “box.” Reminds me of those early 90s SUVs, but like 10x uglier. Specs are impressive but I just can’t get over the aesthetics. ------ gclawes What did I just watch? ~~~ baddox You watched them appear to accidentally break both side windows then do the rest of the event with shattered windows. ------ FlyingSideKick I love the new look and am curious about if the exoskeleton has crumple points to reduce the kinetic energy imparted to the passengers during a collision. ------ henearkr Yeah by the way which is the biggest news, the truck or the ATV? Or both? Personnally I would by wildy interested by the Tesla ATV and less by the truck ------ blauditore Personally I like cars with rough edges like this. But there's a reason no one except for Lamborghini is building low-polygon cars: It's pretty inefficient aerodynamically. But this looks like just an early concept. Those always look much more spectacular than the final, real-world version where physics and laws need to be respected. We can probably expect it to end up looking a bit more round and less exciting. ------ hpen I definitely want to drive this truck. But never want to be seen driving this truck ~~~ fastball I would. Ignoring sports/concept cars, this is arguably the most futuristic looking car in a long time. ------ bigintjin I think this product, tesla cybertruck, is a good display of "function is form". Usually people preface "function over form" or "form over function". But in this case, the functionality of this truck solves the reason to have a truck REALLY WELL. The form of the truck comes from being a very practical, efficient use of a truck. Form has been getting seeping into "aesthetics", which is good and all, but is that really where it should go? Sure, it's nice to look at something pretty, but why not have some cases where form fits the functionality perfectly. I think this is a good implementation of mending the two practices into one harmonious product where function and form balances each other out. Function: strong outer body, powerful, and everything serves a purpose. Form: tesla's well-known low-drag design, probs makes manufacturing simpler (not easier per say, but simpler), etc. I can't think of all the reasonings of functions and forms, but I just think this cybertruck would be super useful to have in particular blue-collar jobs. ------ noonespecial "Order Now" -> Too Many Requests Guru Meditation: XID: 2262329 Props for an error page that tickled my nostalgia in a most geeky way. ~~~ Gaelan That's from Varnish, a proxy server. ------ krilly Anyone else think this looks awful? Especially compared to BMWs i series, which is unashamedly futuristic but also, well, nice ------ oxplot Live streaming of people trying it out: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDztHFa0_Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDztHFa0_Q) , [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoutN_Ezs8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoutN_Ezs8w) ------ spectramax I feel like we're going through a similar phase as the 50's where all American cars had huge flarings that had no purpose, but they had aesthetic value. This thing is too much style for the sake of style. In some ways, it is cool - use aesthetics to market to masses, change the world - one gas guzzler at a time. ------ eyegor I'm reminded of top gear's Geoff [1]. It's that concept car angularity that makes you believe that it could be manufactured in a shed, if only it had a frame. [1] [https://pics.imcdb.org/0ge20/206146-Geoff.jpg](https://pics.imcdb.org/0ge20/206146-Geoff.jpg) ------ buboard I think the main point here is that electric cars (being simpler and having few parts) also cater to extremely versatile designs. I wonder how far they could gog away from the classic truck design within allowed regulations (like, a shorter front, different positioning etc). Clearly aesthetics are not a concert here. ------ laacz The design might be intentional. Knowing that they would not be able to fulfill all orders of a beautiful Cybertruck, this might be a smart move. Reduces number of potential orders, proves a EV pick-up truck point, and sets an extreme price baseline, which for other manufacturers could be very hard to reach. ------ coding123 I suspect that over the next 6 months to a year, everyone will want this truck. They think it is awful right now. They are shocked. This will change. People are going to start asking the automotive industry for the future. I was disgusted yesterday. I'm interested in this vehicle today. ------ trimbo I can't be the only one who sees the design similarities to the Delorean, right? And to top it off it's stainless steel... ~~~ asteli The unpainted steel of the DeLorean made it a pain in the ass to repair. You can't pull dents, apply body filler and repaint, you basically need a whole new panel if you want to restore damage. ~~~ mullingitover The part of the demo that was actually impressive was the part where they took sledgehammers to the body panels and didn't leave dents. I think it'll be fine. ------ QuantumGood It looks like it was designed by a guy who makes rockets — and it was. I admire the chutzpah to make something that looks so different than what is selling, but it seems like the kind of "futuristic" that would be made from cardboard in a sixth-grade "back to the Future" theater performance. It's easy to see what's cool about it, but it's somehow very immature. Though I admit the longer I've looked at it, the more neutral I feel about it, but maybe that's just a personality defect. Elon said in advance he doesn't care if people don't like how it looks, so clearly he anticipated some negative feedback about the look. I can see it in a lot of scenarios, but just not in my driveway. ------ lanekare I am so excited by the Cybertruck. I drive a Toyota minivan now and my lease is up in the fall of 2021 so the timing is perfect. To me this is the perfect minivan alternative and my husband is thrilled with the hauling capacity, plus the specs. Fun to drive, big range and looks cool (but I could not care less what it looks like since I drive a minivan now!)and the price is the real hook. No gas needed six seater electric truck that drives like a Porsche? Sold. So you can get the truck market but also the minivan market. That’s huge. And my family skis and snowboards so it’s perfect for going to the mountains. Total all purpose vehicle for an active family. What is not to love? ------ londons_explore Entirely flat metal panels tend to be rather disappointing mechanically... Tap on them and they'll sound like a drum... I forsee major issues with noise from the body panels fluttering in the wind at high speeds, or just being noisy as rain hits it. ------ tus88 Is this for real? That rear slope looks like it will kill headroom in the back. Looks like a concept car (truck). ------ sebmanchester I absolutely love this truck's design. I really wonder (and worth noting because no one else has yet) how much the aerodynamics played into the aesthetics. The coefficient of drag on this thing is probably great because of the truck's profile. The trailing edge comes to a point to reduce vortices / separation of flow (and thus drag), which would have a significant impact on range. I find it funny because the profile is very similar to that of an older Prius, which actually had excellent aerodynamics compared to any other car at the time. Obviously this thing would eat a Prius for a snack, and I wouldn't be surprised if cybertruck has a better Cd. ------ edwhitesell I've been waiting for this announcement so I could decide on the next truck I buy. In terms of specs, it's pretty good. In terms looks, it's terrible. I was hoping Tesla would put out a vehicle to be top of the list, they failed. ------ FOLKDISCO From the side, the pickup initially looks downright weird. But I think in three dimensions, it looks astonishing and brilliant. But the thing that really gets me is the 3+3 seating. We've got two sets of twins, and I drive one of the very few cars on the road with 3+3 seating, a Fiat Multipla. It just works for big families. To some it's the ugliest car on the road, but to me that car goes all the way around to beautiful, and no one denies its practicality. Whenever I see another one we almost always wave to each other. Hey, beauty is all in the beholder, and the Tesla looks great. I'd love an estate/Station wagon even more. ------ gurumeditations Regardless of its power, that is the ugliest car design I’ve ever seen. Seeing it in the stage in video after the renders on the website made it even worse. Nerds may think it’s cool, but I doubt you’ll catch many people riding around in it. ------ homonculus1 From a distance you can sort of see what the were going for, but looking at it up close it's dumb ugly. I imagine they thought they were being clever and minimal with the straight lines and utter lack of subtlety, but the result is just clunky and inept. It's like a child's crude drawing, and the fact that adults actually made this is absurd. It reminds me of TARS from _Interstellar_ , which is another design people inexplicably praised. I probably hate this even more for the fact that I adore the angular Fiero/Lambo/DeLorean/Blade Runner aesthetic. This is such a poorly botched, cluelessly literal interpretation of that. ------ asdkhadsj I'm not a car or truck person.. so forgive the ignorance.. but is it rear wheel only? The `Drivetrain: REAR-WHEEL DRIVE` section has me perplexed for a number of reasons. 1\. I thought Teslas where all wheel? Ie, the nature of how they work is such that each wheel was a motor. Is that not the case for this one? 2\. Isn't all-wheel a valuable offering? This doesn't seem to be an off-road focused vehicle.. but nevertheless I personally value all wheel. Am I wrong in this? I find this weird. I can't afford it anyway, BUT, I have often joked that I need a small Tesla truck to replace my Prius. However, strangely nothing about this interests me. Even if I had the money. ~~~ robcohen There are other motor options which have AWD. There's also an option which tows 14,000 lbs, which is a very large load, double the load an F-150 tows. ------ billconan Looks like they want to win some military contract ... I really like the dent free exterior and the color. ------ shadykiller It’s gonna cut any pedestrians it hits into half ~~~ klyrs Sure, but the pedestrian will cut the window in half ------ drinchev But this looks like a prototype. No windshields, no side mirrors. Is this even legal? ------ dghughes That roof will not work very well in areas with snow. You're going to spend an hour cleaning off the snow and ice. In my region a hefty fine is in store for anyone who does not clear snow and ice from their vehicle roof. ~~~ perspective1 Why do you say that? With the slope and adjustable suspension I'd think it'd be easier-- you just lower the truck and brush the snow down in a few swoops. ~~~ dghughes Snow sticks it's not always like magic light fluffy movie snow. And ice can seem like it's been welded on. Plus it looks like a very long reach to get to it. I drive a Dodge 2500 4x4 and my roof is 1/3 the size of that beast. And it's 6'6" high which makes it awkward to be able to remove ice. If ice flies off and hits another vehicle while I am driving I am in big trouble, and rightly so. ------ dirtyid Form over factor = endearingly ugly. I can see the narrative for a simple aerodynamic wedge eventually changing public sentiment. Basically the modernist argument against decoration. If this actually ends up being a solid workhorse, the same energy efficiency and fragile masculinity arguments that shamed humvee owners might also work against frou-frou status symbol pickup trucks. That said the bedrail is high AF so I don't even know if this design is practical. I assume there's some sort hood and winch int he front, and mounts for lights / accessories that would ruin the profile. ------ martin-adams I wonder how a design like this stacks up when taking pedestrian safety into consideration. Of course, with self driving safety features you could argue it should never hit a pedestrian. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_safety_through_vehi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_safety_through_vehicle_design) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_safety_through_vehi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_safety_through_vehicle_design#/media/File:PedCrashSequence.png) ------ Finbarr You can pre-order with a down payment of only $100 today for delivery in late 2021. ~~~ omarchowdhury Does that guarantee a purchase spot? ------ XMPPwocky The video link stopped working halfway through for me, but that design isn't final, right? Looks like an early prototype for integration testing- that angular look can't be what it'll actually ship like? ~~~ ganoushoreilly That's the final look, what i'd like to see is more about that new ATV! ------ nexneo 20 years late but finally it started to feel like we are living in 21st century. ------ yummypaint Most people who have trucks rarely use them for things a car or suv couldn't do. I think the range limitations when towing and other limitations probably won't hurt sales because people who have to do serious long distance towing wouldnt consider a tesla anyway. The cybertruck will be used as a big car by most people most of the time. As long as it is able to maintain the aspirational marketing properties of other trucks it should do well in the US. Plus it has the chicken tax on its side. ------ dognotdog ... and I'm just sitting here wondering if the rims really are not round (as it's interlock the tire design seems to indeed indicate), and why on earth one would do that? ------ mrsmeds Inspired by [https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokedex/porygon](https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokedex/porygon) ------ MR4D I wonder if the motor is 1.21 gigawatts. John Delorean is back! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-77xulkB_U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-77xulkB_U) ------ pengstrom I'm not up to speed with US regulations, but the design seems very dangerous for pedestrian collisions. A sharp and hard shell must be very harmful, even at low speeds. ------ sandov "What does this monstrosity cost?" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPc- VEqBPHI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPc-VEqBPHI) ------ GistNoesis Who wants Simone's Truckla instead ? [https://twitter.com/SimoneGiertz](https://twitter.com/SimoneGiertz) ------ naskwo Let's hope these trucks are more reliable than the Teslas that are in use as electric taxis at Amsterdam Airport: [https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=auto&tl=en&u...](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrc.nl%2Fnieuws%2F2019%2F11%2F20%2Fin-3-jaar- moest-de-taxi-33-keer-terug-naar-tesla-a3981098) ------ gkfasdfasdf Ugliness aside, I wonder if the onboard electrical outlets will allow it to be used as emergency power for a fridge / sump pump in case of a power outage. ------ ummonk This seems to be the electric version of the hummer. Not a practical replacement to actual pickup trucks, but a lot of coolness factor for people who want it. ------ noisy_boy For some reason, immediately reminded of Knight Rider[0]. I hope the lights strobe[1]. [0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Rider_(1982_TV_series)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Rider_$1982_TV_series$) [1]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj80Kwenh6I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj80Kwenh6I) ------ maxehmookau I'm not crazy, right? This thing is totally hideous. ------ friedman23 I'm impressed, honestly, I want one. I imagine this is going to become a cool collectors item some day. I never want to be seen driving it though. ------ anonu I don't think this is a legit new model by Tesla. Do you really think they wouldn't have properly tested their "shatter-proof" windows before a global unveil? And fail twice? This is a really well orchestrated publicity stunt designed to boost the stock price. They calculated that even the failed shatter proof windows wouldn't matter much in public opinion because the car itself is so ugly. ------ themagician Ya'll joke, but I don't suspect they are going to make/sell a lot of these and if Tesla goes under in the near future these things will skyrocket in value. If you really want to bet against Tesla, buy one of these and wait for Tesla to fold. No one will ever make anything like this again. I could even imagine them only making a few hundred of these and them all being worth a million dollars after the company collapses. ------ simonebrunozzi Wow. This thread is going to be one of the most commented of the year. Tesla has been really bold with the design, I love it, and I hope Tesla will be rewarded for it. ------ nbrempel I wonder if this video will be erased from the internet ~~~ nitrogen There was a video? Didn't see anything on my phone just now. ------ excalibur Assuming these ever make it to production, the will absolutely be the vehicle featured in the eventual inevitable _Back to the Future_ reboot. ------ reallydontask Is it just me who is a bit wary of the sports car claims? Acceleration is going to be impressive and CoG will be lower than for similar vehicles but likely much higher than say for a BMW M2 or similar sporty car, so cornering isn't likely to be anywhere near as good which coupled with the extra weight, it seems that this will be good for a pick up truck but no competition for a car in a circuit. ------ abvdasker Given how homogenous the last 20 years of automotive design has been I'm really impressed by Tesla's willingness to do something so radically different. Jobs understood the power of great design: Conceiving a product that people don't know they want until you show them. Not normally a big fan of Musk or Tesla, but this feels like one of those products. It feels like the future. ------ JustSomeNobody It will be interesting to see just how useful the bed is. Angled sides are usually a non-starter for a work truck. Also, if this is supposed to be a bug- out vehicle, how do you charge it when it’s bugged-out? Anyway, the design is certainly getting people talking. We’ll have to wait and see if Ford and Chevy have any response to this in terms of how their design language changes. ------ mxfh Nobody noticed, that besides _Armour Glass_ they also sold a _Dead blow hammer_ as a _Sledgehammer_. These are categorically opposite things in terms of impact force. How gullible must they think, their audience is? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_blow_hammer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_blow_hammer) ~~~ mxfh Even worse the first trials against the conventional door were partly sideways, where the dead blow hammer just functions like a regular hammer or worse depending on area size of impact with P=F/A. ------ select-all The renders on their site are exceptionally bad. They don't even look quite like renders, rather hand-made sketches with textures applied on top. The design of the truck is not that bad and I bet the car would look fantastic in real life and on real photos, with all the minor detail, reflections and the feel of the real material, that is now missing. ~~~ jiofih Most are not renders, just heavy photoshop. ------ themagician So weird that people take the design here personally. This thing looks FUN. It seems just as ridiculous looking as an F-350 to me, and more practical than a Hummer. This is what I imagine a luxury vehicle looking like post zombie apocalypse. Most of the world falls apart, but the 1% create disconnected suburban paradises and this is what you drive to get between them. ------ raldi Everyone in this comment thread is referring to a video of a live event, but I can't find any such thing on the linked site. ~~~ tamalpais It was at livestream.tesla.com. Looks like the stream is no longer up. ------ seph-reed Something I haven't seen mentioned much is that this is going to be one of the only cars on the market that you can fix the exterior on with plate-steel and a welder. In terms of apocalyptic vehicles, this is amazing. Also, in terms of me fucking hating curvy bullshit that nobody can work on without special tools... I really like it. ------ manigandham This design is just strange. When the Model S was introduced, Tesla specifically stated that it was designed to look like high-end luxury/sports cars instead of following the funky/future design that hybrids always had until. Interesting that they reversed it with this truck, and I wonder how it'll affect the market of potential truck buyers. ------ kijin It looks like Elon ordered a little too much stainless steel for his Starship fleet and wants to put it to a more earthly use. ------ pa7ch I kind of love it. Seems to hit the mark on price, range, capability, size. Would personally only want a van version, or possibly just the ability to take out the second seats and barrier. Would be great then for urban travel and camping. Also would love to learn more about the engineering trade-offs in their exoskeleton structure over traditional frame on body designs. ------ amai Very militaristic design. In fact it looks like the russian Zil Punisher: [https://www.topspeed.com/cars/zil- punisher/ke5011.html](https://www.topspeed.com/cars/zil-punisher/ke5011.html) Maybe Musk is planning to sell his vechicles to the military, also? ------ ry4n413 Ever since that cement bridge collapsed at Florida International University a few months ago on top of cars, I've been wondering if any type of car could withstand the force of such a scenario. Anyone know if this truck could withstand the scenario? Hopefully someone smart with the Physics or Engineering can help me out with an answer. ------ spectrum1234 I can't believe how cheap this is. They could charge 10k more for each, at least for 1-2 years. What am I missing? ------ hooschen Anyone knows how the laser lighting works on stage. The effect looks like the light beam has a start/end and can move, similar to a lightsaber. e.g. around -44minutes [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZbVixSkgu0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZbVixSkgu0) ------ sebringj The cab/bed ratio is off IMO, should have a bigger bed to look more truck-like regardless of the future styling. ------ aivosha Does anyone else see a problem in giving virtually indestructible (or at least much more so than any other car) in the hands of typical "truck driver" or is it just me ? I can just picture a dumbass in this truck on the highway not giving two shits about other cars around him. I dont like this picture. ------ lazyjones It certainly doesn't fit in with current car aesthetics that try to mimic something like a bulging piece of muscle with a face. It's like straight out of the future we were hoping for in the 80's, where machines were cold, hard steel and not mushy plastic. Has Arnold Schwarzenegger preordered one? ------ ping_pong It looks like it was designed in Minecraft. ~~~ GrayTextIsTruth looks like a low poly design. ------ oskarpearson I really like the design. It seems like the sci-fi car designs from my childhood are finally here. I just found this! [https://www.motor1.com/photo/486061/1980-citroen- karin-48606...](https://www.motor1.com/photo/486061/1980-citroen- karin-486061/) ------ jbc1 Reminds me of an old game I used to play where you drove around a blocky vehicle with a similar shape. Now I can't stop trying to think of the name of it. EDIT: Was the link changed right after posting? Everyone's talking about a failed glass demo with Elon and all I'm seeing is photos of an odd looking truck. ~~~ klyrs Kinda reminds me of the ships in the Descent series. ~~~ _Microft Oh yeah, the Pyro (GL?) looked absolutely awesome. ------ YeGoblynQueenne This looks extremely dangerous. It looks like it could mow down a whole sidewalk full of people if the driver made a wrong turn. So I guess this one won't be marketed for its safety and its ability reduce traffic deaths, like the Teslas with Autopilot. Or will this also have Autopilot? That sounds even worse somehow. ~~~ kortilla Which feature allows it to mow people down better? ~~~ YeGoblynQueenne From Tesla's website: _EXOSKELETON Cybertruck is built with an exterior shell made for ultimate durability and passenger protection. Starting with a nearly impenetrable exoskeleton, every component is designed for superior strength and endurance, from Ultra-Hard 30X Cold-Rolled stainless-steel structural skin to Tesla armor glass._ [https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck?redirect=no](https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck?redirect=no) The steel exterior coupled with the flat square front seems to me like a perfect combination to kill in a collision with a person. By the way, visiting the website I can confirm that the word "safety" is nowhere to be found. ~~~ kortilla You do know trucks with brush guards already have no problem mowing down tons of people, right? ~~~ YeGoblynQueenne So we should just make more? ~~~ kortilla Yes, they are a non-issue. ------ aiphex I appreciate the vaporwave aesthetic. I like that it was given space to be designed by someone passionate and not a design by committee - appeal to the masses blob. Unfortunately what they came up with is crap. I'm worried this will kill off any further vaporwave designs because it is so bad. ------ avs733 Angular vehicle Stainless steel body Smaller auto manufacturer with potentially dubious finances Charasmatic founder with a host of drug use I feel like I've heard this story...before...[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_Motor_Company](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_Motor_Company) ------ ryanicale Could you live in one of these cybertrucks? Put in a sofabed in the back, small kitchen, work table, router... ------ godelmachine Alright. So I just wanna step aside and stop drooling over how handsome/ ugly it is and ask a real question. Has a prototype been created, and shown at any expo? Or Elon is just gonna squeeze money out of starry eyed buyers now and only then start design + production? In the past he has been late by months in delivery after making customers shell out money. ------ snow_mac I can't see why I'd buy an ugly truck like this instead of an F150. Talk about ugly and expensive ------ CelestialTeapot One part Nova Sterling [1], 9 parts hideous. They should have used a CAD system that supported more than straight lines. 1\. [https://www.google.com/search?q=nova+sterling&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=nova+sterling&tbm=isch) ------ mixedbit If you like such unconventional design, take a look here: [https://www.peugeot.co.uk/concept- cars/e-legend/](https://www.peugeot.co.uk/concept-cars/e-legend/) unfortunately this one is only a concept car. ------ Iv The 90s have called... They want their Cyberpunk 2020 font back into something more legible. I suggest he hires Hasselhoff for the promotion [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTidn2dBYbY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTidn2dBYbY) ------ olefoo The included air compressor and security lock on the bed does mean it could be quite popular with contractors especially given the competitive price. It does have way too much of the "in case I need to flee the mob to my private jet to flee to New Zealand" flavor to it though. ~~~ BlueGh0st Most of the features of this truck are things that we should have already gotten in our pickup trucks 10 years ago when they started breaching $50k. Hopefully this will light a fire under Ford/Chevy to actually giving us some tangible value. ------ TaylorGood In fashion nothing is new and everything is born again. I love this.. Elon prefaced it best by stating the inspiration was early 007. How amazing a large-scale mfg can do such a thing. How dare Ford, Cadillac, etc waver from their aesthetic. It's possible for Elon and he does it. ~~~ rarecoil So the inspiration is the Lotus Esprit S1 from the Moore era, is my guess: [https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/Lotus_Esprit_S1_(1976)](https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/Lotus_Esprit_S1_$1976$) ------ leesec Just emphasizing the fact that the top end has a 0-60 in sub seconds is INSANE. My model 3 is just a base model and is crazy quick, this is 40% faster than that! Imagine being in a 2019 Porsche and get smoked off the line by this giant industrial crazy hunk of metal. ------ garysahota93 Is no one else wondering why there are no rear view mirrors on the thing? Looks really cool though! ~~~ himlion Probably cameras instead. ------ jmpman Extend the roofline back, add a third row of seating and charge +$10k... I’d buy it in a heartbeat. ------ abawany This announcement eclipsed the previously-announced Bollinger Motors products ([https://bollingermotors.com/](https://bollingermotors.com/)). These were intriguing but the price ($125k) is a bit eye popping. ------ arkades So... it looks like they stuck a solid steel shell on a passenger vehicle. Many of the safety gains that cars have shown in the past few decades come from strategic crumple zones and the like. So how does this stand up in terms of actual safety? This seems like it reverses many of our advancements. ------ jmakov So basically Tesla is starting products for military and police (armored offroad vehicles). Cool. ------ Ididntdothis It’s kind of cool and I like that it looks very different. But do we really need more super heavy, huge and expensive vehicles on the road? It would be much better if they put their efforts into something small, efficient and affordable and made that cool. ~~~ usaphp Like a model 3? ~~~ Ididntdothis Much smaller. We need smaller cars. ------ bredren This looks a lot like the M577 Armored Personnel Carrier from Aliens. [https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/M577_Armored_Personne...](https://alienanthology.fandom.com/wiki/M577_Armored_Personnel_Carrier) ------ ivanhoe Does a general public really needs bulletproof cars with unbreakable windows? What if there's a traffic accident and passengers are caught inside, how do you get them out? (assuming you don't have a handy metal ball laying around somewhere :P) ------ irrational For me, if it can't hold a 4x8 sheet of plywood flat in the bed, it's not a truck. ------ ssalka It's a pick-up truck, so... why isn't there a single clear shot of the cargo bed? ------ generatorguy Put a new ski-doo in the back and that’s a sick rig! After living through so many rusted out car bodies I was in to the aluminum f150s but stainless steel is even better. No paint to worry about scratching up on narrow deactivates logging roads. ------ hongzi It would be super cool if the cover of the back truck is a solar panel: [https://www.tesla.com/xNVh4yUEc3B9/06_Desktop.jpg](https://www.tesla.com/xNVh4yUEc3B9/06_Desktop.jpg) ------ mmartinson I find this looks goofy, but other than the lack of physical buttons inside, this is a dream vehicle for me. Most weekends I want to drive 4 people + 4 mountain bikes a 120 mile round trip including fast highway and rough mountain roads. ------ jozzas I quite like the Paul Verhoeven '80s angular action movie aesthetic in general, but this just looks bad. The proportions are all off. I thought it was a joke and they were going to bring out the actual truck at some point. ------ komuW The Citroen Karin[1] concept car has come to life. 1\. [http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/karin/karin.html](http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/karin/karin.html) ------ idlewords Probably smart to wait for the second generation model with way better vertex count. ------ ohlookabird Oh and now the order page can't handle the traffic… Error 429 Too Many Requests ------ ethagknight so assuming Elon launchs one of these into space heading for mars in the near future, will this thing drive on mars? Does the air pressurization system, super rugged shell, and ATV make this thing ideal for life as a martian? ------ namelosw Love the design. It's a vehicle, specifically a truck. A simple geometry is practical and applausable for most of cases. Those who can't accept the anesthetic couldn't accept current iPhone design in if they are in 2005 either. ------ fastball The video seems to have been taken down from official Tesla spots, so here's a mirror. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwvDOdBHYBw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwvDOdBHYBw) ------ bitxbit I was hoping for a design similar to the Bollinger. I thought that box look with Tesla battery could be a big hit. [https://bollingermotors.com/](https://bollingermotors.com/) ------ macinjosh The overall feeling of this truck's design transports me back to when I was a small boy dreaming up my ideal adventure vehicle and drawing it out in my school notebooks. It makes me want one just to satisfy my inner child. :) ------ DanGarthwaite Two things just occurred to me: 1) The built in air compressor is so it can maintain cabin pressure in space. 2) The shape might have some optimum cylindrical packing arrangement for starship's cargo bay. ------ xvx I've seen this vehicle before, in the 2018 film 'Upgrade': [https://www.imcdb.org/v001169007.html](https://www.imcdb.org/v001169007.html) ------ christkv The car looks like the car from a B or C level scifi direct to DVD movie :) ------ gwbas1c Looks cooler than the FJ Cruiser and the Wrangler! Now if only my wife will be seen in one, we'll be able to tow a travel trailer and drive on the beach guilt-free! (But how do we back into a super charger while towing?) ------ flr03 Happy the GPU which will have to render that in the next Gran Turismo. ------ ethagknight Late 2021 delivery of the dual motor, late 2022 of the trimotor model ------ jdkee For some reason it strongly reminds me of the drop ship tank from Aliens. [https://www.imcdb.org/v040477.html](https://www.imcdb.org/v040477.html) ------ rdl Curious why there isn't a Founders Series on this car -- full prepayment (on a loaded config) for first-in-line position, which helps them with cashflow (a major issue for Tesls). ------ NikolaNovak What is the visibility like from that angular cockpit, I wonder? ------ xwdv It would be cool if military vehicles looked like this though. ------ MagnumPIG I'm getting a strong "Homer Simpson's car" vibe from this. I'm rooting for Tesla but this... I wouldn't even want to _ride_ in it. ------ chemmail Everyone thought this thing was a joke and waiting for the real truck reveal esp after all the laughing and smashing of the windows. Next day all of us wants one. ------ londons_explore Rumours are this will be folded rather than pressed... Is there a source for this? I'd press parts if I were designing it - unless you want welds showing at the corners! ~~~ grecy Motortrend are saying this (They had access to it back in September). It's going to drastically reduce production costs. [https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric- pi...](https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup- engineering-manufacturing) ~~~ londons_explore I don't agree - as soon as you need to make more than one fold in a bit of steel, then pressing becomes cheaper in volume. People fold prototypes because the press dies are expensive to make, but when made, a press can fold all the edges at once. Even cheap washing machines are all pressed steel. ------ chromaton Reminds me of a Syd Mead design or something from Car Wars. ------ tibbydudeza Looks like that RV prop "Ark II" from that 70 s scifi show ... ex BMW flame surfacing car designer Chris Bangle would be proud of so much ugly. ------ wsloth514 Cybertruck's target niche market = thugs, gangs, & drug lords. Why? 9mm bullet proof, faster than a cop car. Can carry everything and hide it. ------ jonplackett It’s the frikkin Batmobile! I want one. I will never actually buy one because a) $$$ and b) I live in a city with small roads. But it looks awesome. No ------ m0zg Throw in Delorean-style gullwing doors for good measure. It's already stainless steel. And vertical takeoff and landing. SpaceX can do that too. ------ bori5 Reminds me of the “Homer” upon laying first eyes on it. ~~~ kalleboo I've seen that meme floating around on Twitter, but I don't get it. The "Homer" was a car with a million little crazy details added onto it. It was bubbly and green. This thing has all the details _removed_ from it (it doesn't even have side mirrors!), and it's flat and black and gray. There's zero resemblance? Is the joke just that "it's different from other cars"? ------ rasz Cybertruck you say? and that font? Let me guess, release date somewhere around April 16 2020? Is this a Cyberpunk 2077 cross promotion gimmick? ------ erikig I think the most underrated part of the presentation was the Tesla ATV - I think that might end up being Tesla’s most successful product yet. ------ retpirato their demo of it reminded me of some of Apple's product demos when things didn't "just work" like Apple likes to brag that they do. Steve Jobs actually made them funny to watch. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-50513294](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-50513294) ------ big_chungus This thing looks like one of those low-poly svgs used while loading the full thing; I keep expecting an actual truck to appear, but no dice. ------ BjoernKW That design looks like straight from the Tron movies, which perhaps is just the aesthetic and associated nostalgia Tesla is aiming for here. ------ Apocryphon I like to imagine the name is a homage to Cyberduck. ------ gigatexal I’m so glad they went with a unique design. This looks so crazy it will likely be talked about for days and months to come. And I want one! ------ noetic_techy Elon: "... and its bulletproof!" Hardware Eng #1 turns to Hardware Eng #2: "Wait... where does it say that in the spec we received..." ------ devit Looks horrendous to me, but I guess many people love it. Also, "truck" doesn't seem appropriate at all, maybe "tugcar" would be? ------ killjoywashere I didn't even realize there was an announcement event. Don't care. Take my $100. This is the beast-mode version of a Model S. ------ bamboozled I don't really own a car, I don't really consider myself "a car guy" but I want this truck, it's beautiful and awesome. Bravo. ------ et2o They are going to sell an insane amount of these. ------ cbzehner Even if the target market fails, they’ve got a fallback. These things are going to be on Hollywood sci-fi sets for years to come! ------ soulofmischief > near infinite mass What is "near infinite"? Ten? I'm not a fan of this marketing faux pas. Also, the carousel moves too fast for me to read it. ------ madoublet Not a huge fan of the design. But, it just seems like it would be a horrible truck. How are you suppose to get to the bed? ------ danans I sense a disturbance in the force, like the voices of millions of inner nine year olds howling in ecstasy (myself included) ------ botto This is dystopian future car, how many sci fi movies have we seen with cars looking like this? I.e. Ghost in the Shell ------ cagenut It is amazing how weird and poorly produced these things are. The cheesy outfits, the terrible lighting, the window demo failure. Its like they go out of their way to cut corners and look unprofessional to strike some kind of authenticity note. Like, obviously they're not faking the demo, or the windows wouldn't have broken. And the mumbling fumble/botched-transition to the ATV... VH1 interns could produce a better event than this. ------ pizzaparty2 Sure would be a shame if the Internet reacted to this like they did when screenshots of the new Sonic movie came out. ------ mobilemidget Pity HN doesn't support polls, I would loved to have seen a number on the people who love/hate this design. ------ hodder Given Tesla has axed their capex to almost nothing due to their liquidity crunch it is highly unlikely this ever gets built. Same with the semi truck. These “Product” unveils are designed to pull in cash deposits to fund current expenses and massive cash incineration, not future development. This will likely never be built and if you are thinking of giving Tesla a deposit for anything they currently are not producing I implore you to look at Tesla’s balance sheet. ~~~ goshx $100 pre-order would be a rounding error in their balance sheet. ------ anonytrary If I could only make one goofy comment on HN every week, I'd probably say this looks like a giant lego truck. ------ MassiveOwl If it's really made out of stainless, with those angles wouldn't it fail on pedestrian collision tests? ------ rishabhd The 80's called, they want their truck back. Jokes apart, what is the target demographic and what about the unusual aesthetic? ------ nedsma Let's be honest, Cybertruck (CYBERTRK) is one hell of a name, compared for example to Model T or Model B. ------ ik8s I'm sorry, but this looks terrible... I can't imagine seeing the average person driving this at all. ------ tom_sawyer I cannot imagine buying a truck without racks for lumber or ladders or paddle board. I use my rack so much. ------ mwattsun Speaking of stealth, how well will self driving autonomous cars be able to detect a Cybertruck on the road? ------ Insanity I really dislike how trucks look, but this one actually looks pretty cool. Not something great for our European roads though. ------ rdtwtf This looks like something out of Total Recall, which maybe makes sense since Musk is obsessed with Mars. ------ justinzollars I love it. It looks like the future, but also reminds me of Johnny Cab from Total Recall. Still love it. ------ golover721 I’m excited for it, though I guarantee the end result will look a lot different than what is presented. ------ kolla Is there any country other than the US where people see a truck as a viable option to drive around in? ------ Aloha Where on earth does one get tires for septagon wheel - I wonder how much those will cost to replace. ~~~ evandev Most likely, those are just aesthetics and are more like large hubcaps over a round tire. ------ babesh Terminator, Mad Max, Robocop, Batman. ------ debt It's no coincidence the hull of the Starship will also be made of cold-rolled stainless steel. ------ wrkronmiller I wonder if part of the motivation for this design is to test components for future mars rovers... ------ gerash The design is such that it's hard to tell if the video on the website are real or animations. ------ tito The tent/camping mode looks cool. I’m excited to make an autonomous truck + RV my next home. ------ rlw001 The best thing about this is you can put your gas powered generator in the bed to recharge. :) ------ songshuu I really do wish they had a landing page for the ATV. It was the best part of the presentation. ------ knolax When I was a kid I had a phone that kinda looked like a car. This car looks like that phone. ------ agumonkey This is what happens when you let Elon binge watch James Cameron movies and then StreetHawk. ------ rapind We know Elon is worried about AI. I think the plan is to blend in when Skynet takes over. ------ Voxoff Anyone think the window breaking in the demo was done on purpose - for the media points? ------ velcro Not really a fan of the design - too rough for this world and too fragile to survive Mad Max ;) Plenty of Tesla design concepts online that were way better: [https://www.behance.net/gallery/78909965/TESLA- Pickup](https://www.behance.net/gallery/78909965/TESLA-Pickup) ------ rglover _Get into my Cybertruck with my Cybiko to take a trip through Cyberspace. Whoosh_. ------ tcbawo The tri motor version will go from 0-60mph in under three seconds. That's insane! ------ taurath $100 preorder seems.... quite low? I wonder how many serious buyers are reserving one. ------ drharby The first thing i thought of...its the Delorian. I want one and i want this to succeed ------ koolba It looks like a bullet proof DeDelorean and that's not intended as a complement. ------ antoineMoPa I think I have to change my graphics card, I see very few polygons on this website. ------ bena It looks like it was designed by someone who saw an 80s movie set in the year 2019. ------ buboard loving the very ugly, but so different design. But are those LED headligths legal? ------ salawat Is it just me, or does that thing not look like a rip off of Paloma from Megarace? ------ api I _need_ to drive one of these around Dallas, Texas with truck nutz on it. ------ bitL Low-poly car from the 80s' sci-fi :D I didn't expect future to materialize like this... ------ scoutt Where do I hang the back plate? Also, the ugliest car ever. Worse than the latest Batman car. ------ mattrp GMC just got pwned with their electric smooshed truck reveal earlier today. ------ phlakaton I get wanting something that looks different, but difference just for difference's sake is no virtue. I think if I had to render the term "alt-right" in vehicular form, it would look something like this. It seems to me an disturbingly accurate reflection of our polarized times. ~~~ jfoster So you're saying it's "too alt-right", right? Isn't the alt-right also the group that doesn't believe in climate change? So they'd never adopt an electric vehicle based on its virtue of being electric. What if the vehicle is made specifically to appeal to them, though, and just happens to also be electric? I don't know whether your premise is correct or not, but if it is, this might be genius. ~~~ phlakaton I think you've got it precisely right. ------ esotericn Apparently Blade Runner was set yesterday. Well, we're there folks. Just needs VTOL. ;) ------ londons_explore Anyone got a link to the original video of this event? Seems to have vanished from the net. ------ kevinventullo It reminds me of the robot dogs from the Black Mirror episode Metalhead. ------ aplummer I like the car but it seems really dangerous to pedestrians in a crash. ------ elisharobinson the car would look 70% better if they remove a triangle of steel between the bowl and the end of the roof. i think i am warming up to the design after seeing more pics in better lighting. ------ rerpha I'll stick with my 50 year old cars thanks - this looks shite. ------ trianglem How is it that all ~2000 comments are under one discussion thread? ------ Grustaf I would rather buy a Bollinger Motors truck, this is just too ugly ------ tapatio So weird and terrible looking that I love it. My pre-order is in! ------ Angostura Designed to appeal to all the people who grew up playing Elite. ------ IAmGraydon All of the aesthetic stuff aside, the high sides next to the bed make it completely useless as an actual pickup truck. This is what it looks like when a bunch of people who have never done manual labor in their lives designs a truck. ------ rjplatte I have mixed feelings right now, but this thing is going to grow on a lot of people. It just looks... badass. EDIT: It's like the first time I saw The Rock. I thought his head was too small and his face was stupid. Now I love Dwayne Johnson. ------ dumbfounder What. Seriously. WHAT. Also, RWD? This thing breaks my brain. ------ shahidkarimi What is the name of ailment which makes someone buy trucks? ------ sabujp tsla down almost 7% i told you it was ugly. How hard would it have been to make it _not ugly_. Just use some sweeping lines, add some more polygons! ------ petre Looks like a stainless steel origami opression vehicle. ------ ptah is this safe? modern cars are designed to absorb impact and not transfer it to passengers. this sounds like it is a rigid metal car like a vw beetle ------ ryanmercer As a pickup it looks worthless, as a futuristic military transport that checks off a bunch of my childhood fantasies I wish I could afford one but at more than a year's gross income... _sigh_. ------ techbio The opposite aesthetic direction from the Roadster. ------ kmlx i don't think i've ever seen a car that's hideous from every single angle. did something happen to the tesla design team? ------ wiz21c Is it me or it looks like a proposal for US Army ? ------ AndrewBissell I laughed at the Model Y unveil, but looking at this I am experiencing "Sam Neill 'In the Mouth of Madness' " paroxysms of laughter. What an ugly hunk of garbage. ------ ohlookabird Woah. I think it it's actually pretty cool! ------ lasryaric I don’t even need a truck, I am driving a Prius Prime (32 miles battery + gas tank) today and I want to buy this. The look, the specs, the design of the website, I love it all! ------ Aeolun This looks like the result of a bet gone wrong. ------ fudgy73 there's no way this is what the production version will look like. US still requires side-view mirrors, for instance. ------ RiOuseR Whats with that logo? Is tagging cool again? ------ meddlepal This thing is so fucking quirky I love it. ------ ggambetta > With the ability to pull near infinite mass Wait, what? ------ hit8run The edges are way too sharp for EU regulations I guess. Don’t think this model will be allowed in the EU. Sharp edges like these do more harm on collision. ------ bovermyer I absolutely love the design. I want one. ------ thunderbong Suddenly, it feels like the 21st century! ------ spectaclepiece I feel like I just arrived to the future ------ thunderbong Suddenly it feels like the 21st century! ------ senectus1 flat surfaces, no curved panels.. i wonder how much of that design decision is to reduce production costs? ------ mywacaday Its not a truck its the new mars rover. ------ simonsaidit i wonder if this truck car will be just as bad for the other guys it hits as it would be hitting a truck. ------ monkin The best car design since DeLorean! :) ------ neiman A distopian car for a distopian world. ------ notjustanymike Back to the Future reboot incoming... ------ jonplackett Can someone with more 3D skills than me please make a video of the Cybertruck smashing though a normal truck ICEing a supercharger bay. ------ bochoh How many of you actually preordered? ------ Hoasi Ugly, but cool. That's perfect. ------ celticninja Stealth bomber on wheels. I love it ------ Mikho The design reminds in style old project Boomerang by Ital Design from 1972 [https://www.italdesign.it/project/boomerang/](https://www.italdesign.it/project/boomerang/) BTW, it is the same company that design famous Back to the Future car DeLorean DMC 12. [https://www.italdesign.it/project/dmc-12/](https://www.italdesign.it/project/dmc-12/) ~~~ arkades Reminds me of the Christian Bale batmobile. Paint it black and I’m in. ~~~ Mikho I think US Army will be the main contractor for the pickup replacing Hummer in many cases. ------ Psype I've read Cyberdrunk, sorry. ------ throwaway713 If they can get the glass breaking issue figured out, this might be the first truck to make an appearance in SF. ------ Whut It's so ugly, I want one. ------ dcchambers My disappointment is palpable. ------ sabujp This is so ugly i don't even know where to begin. I think it's worse or on par with the pontiac aztek ~~~ cowgoesmo0 I can't believe there are so many people in this thread that actually like the design. Just goes to show how insanely nerdy the denizens of HN are. ~~~ rvz You can also add that to this type of audience which pretty much sums up what the technical bias of a typical HN reader/commenter really is. So far it is more like all things: Linux, Rust, AMD, ThinkPads, Elon Musk, Rick and Morty, Stanford, MIT, Web- Tech, Stripe Design, Mr Robot, Space Travel, Kubernetes, Data Structures and Algorithms, and now Telsa. ------ everyone Reminiscent of the Delorean ------ asdz the aluminium surface won't it reflect all the sunlight to others? ------ sidcool What is the shipping date? ------ pete_b Is this even legal to sell in Europe? Looks like it is designed to slice objects on collision. ~~~ ptaipale Looks are often quite misleading when you actually start to investigate collision safety. ------ foobar_fighter With a 6.5s 0-60 time, it won't be smoking too many sports cars on the track. ~~~ almost_usual Who buys a truck for this reason? ~~~ newnewpdro Apparently you've never heard of rolling coal or proud boys ~~~ TylerE Yes, but you realize the factor uniting that crowd is a hatred of Prius drivers, right? ------ gchokov I love it. Brave step! ------ ijidak This design is so ugly it makes me question my investment in Tesla. What are they thinking...? ------ hntddt1 Where is back mirror ------ nxpnsv Trucla was better. ------ tengbretson Looks like Tesla has no clue who the people are that buy trucks ------ sabujp tsla down almost 7%, i told you it was ugly ------ mytailorisrich It looks straight from a 70s sci-fi movie. ------ fnord77 love the retracting bed cover ------ robomartin Lots of interesting comments and perspectives in this thread, from the judgmental "trucks are stupid" group (typically outside the US) to "this thing is ugly" reactionaries and everything in between. This is what I love (and hate) about HN. Yet, if you stop and use it as stimulus for though, HN turns out to be a good way to force you to reevaluate your mental models...sometimes. My first reaction to this truck was along the lines of "this is the very definition of ugly". From there it moved to "well, that was stupid" (the glass). And, slowly, once past the shock, it morphed into "it seems to have lots of practical features". Now I want to see one in person and explore it a bit. A few random thoughts: We are in the market to purchase two vehicles within the next, say, 12 months, with one of them likely in the next four months or less. We thought we would go electric...until the fires here in California caused us to rethink things. Simple issue: The infrastructure for conventional vehicles is ubiquitous. You don't even have to think about the availability of energy at all. Simple example, yesterday one of our cars was down to 7 miles of range left in the fuel tank. This wasn't a big deal at all. There are easily twenty gas stations within that driving distance, if not more. And topping-off takes ten minutes or less total time. From my perspective, and some might disagree, at the current time the weakest point of any electric vehicle, Tesla or otherwise, is the --and I think I can use this word-- fact that they cannot be relied upon during emergencies. The infrastructure isn't mature and ubiquitous enough to match the degree of reliance one can place on IC vehicles. If your life and that of your family depends on being able to travel, electric vehicles are a bad idea. Because of this we went from really wanting to transition in to electrics (we even installed a 13 kW solar system in preparation for this transition) to now thinking timing isn't quite right. A brief comment for those disparaging the "American obsession with large vehicles". I'll just say you likely lack context. I don't own a truck, I've always been as sports car guy. I've probably owned more sports cars than anything else. However, most (all) US cities are very different from European cities. There are no problems with the size of roads, all the way down to business districts and neighborhoods. I've traveled all over Europe and other parts of the world. And, yes, in a lot of the cities and towns I have visited US-style SUV's and trucks would make no sense whatsoever. Don't think Americans are ignorant or less sophisticated because they are buying SUV's and trucks. If they were not practical there wouldn't be a market for them. It's the same for what we call minivans --not sure if the same term is used in Europe. We have a Toyota Sienna with 220,000 miles on it. We bought it new. It is incredibly practical in the context of family life, home renovations, dealing with our three German Shepherd dogs, going to the lake, going camping, loading it up with friends and family for travel. Form follows function AND needs, and in the US trucks and SUV --large and small-- exist because they are practical, useful and deliver value. Sure, it is disconcerting to see just one person effectively commuting in a truck. The perspective here is that not everyone is a software engineer, most people have limited financial resources and they can't buy both an efficient small "green-er" vehicle and the truck or SUV they need for family and home use. So, again, they make a choice based on form, function and needs, and if a truck, minivan or SUV make sense, well, that's what they buy, and that's what they drive every day. Back to Tesla... One possible perspective on this is that of what I am generally going to put under the umbrella of fiduciary responsibility. One could rightly argue that coming out with something like this is a breach of that responsibility to investors. Tesla has excellent technology and could become a massive company. The truck market can support millions of units per year in sales just in the US (about 2.5 to 3 million per year). This radical design is, from that perspective, irresponsible. It will capture a very, very small percentage of the 250,000+ trucks per month sold on average in the US. It's a shocker, like the Hummer, but it isn't going to make a dent on overall truck sales. If anything it might signal that Elon isn't interested in growing Tesla beyond a certain level. These are not decisions you make if you want to beat the other guys at their own game (or even redefine the game). In an industry where historical P/E ratios are in the 10 to 15 range, Tesla will eventually have to face that hard cold reality. Sure, today investors ignore this but, at the end of the day, when everyone is making electric cars and batteries, Tesla might not be able to escape the fact that it will be just another car company. In that context, I think this truck might be an irresponsible waste of an important competitive advantage. Two of the worst things you can waste in life are time and trust. This offering is guaranteed to waste a ton of time. Years. And trust also. Anyone who wants a "real" or, let's just say "traditional" truck is going to ignore Tesla and assume they are just crazy. There are 250,000 people making a decision to buy a truck EVERY MONTH, and the VAST majority of them are going to laugh at Tesla and move on. It will be year, maybe even a decade, before anyone looks at Tesla as a serious truck company. So, yeah, time and trust wasted, unnecessarily. I need to see this Tesla thing (that would have been a good name "Thing") but I don't think I am buying one. Next iteration, perhaps. ------ uvesten Is it April first already? ------ aglavine fucking impressive ------ sabujp honestly i think my 4 year old could design a better looking truck ------ eyeball Autopilot? ------ zeptoon So my hypothesis is the people who buy stupidly oversized pickup trucks (which generally speaking aren't going to be the people on this site btw) are either crazy gun people, trailer _____, or people who seriously are trying to prove something. For all of these people it's about making a very large very visible and very obnoxious over the top statement. Really can't see how any of that demographic either wants anything "cyber" (although again this site is the wrong place to be making this argument) or anything that isn't just "in your face over the top MACHO". If you imagine the Cybertruck in wood, it looks like a cheap Pinewood derby car. The design looks like something a 3rd grader came up with. It should be redesigned to: a) have an obnoxiously loud (yet completely unnecessary) ENGINE sound; b) have an incredibly obnoxious front grill that emphasizes absolute dominance; c) a bed in the back that's open to the elements (because no one carries stuff there anyway, and being open to the elements is tough); d) be about 3x the size. Nobody wants a pinewood derby car masquerading as a truck imho. I think this will be a huge flop. ------ z3rgl1ng This is what happens when an Aztec mates with a Delorean. This is the biggest boondoggle, maybe ever. The Reliant Robin has more charisma than this thing. ~~~ CamperBob2 An iconic car with an almost 30-year production run? I'm sure Tesla would be OK with that kind of "boondoggle" on their hands. ------ johnsolo1701 Cringe moment of the year when the glass broke ~~~ jefft255 Twice... ------ internet_user Busted armoured windows on stage, live on TV - priceless. ------ typon Are the people commenting that this truck is a good product just delusional or trolling? ~~~ leesec Are you delusional or just trolling? Shocking that people can like different things, I know. ------ hinkley Since nobody else has commented on this, I’d like to address the jackass who kept shouting to shoot the car with a gun: You want him to fire live rounds in a room full of people. Live rounds that we are expecting to ricochet. Stop watching action movies and go the fuck outside, you absolute unit. ------ djsumdog A lot of people are talking about how it looks awesome. I guess they've done their market research to target the audience that wants this. It's looks like 1980s sci-fi threw up and I think it looks terrible for appealing to most of the general population. They'll probably make their money off of it (with tax subsidies, which is still keeping most of Musk's enterprises afloat .. so we're all paying for it, sadly), but it's because they target the demographic clearly represented in a lot of these comments. Personally, I think the design looks awful and terrible. I don't even really like the current Tesla with their terrible UI, stupid "touch-screen- everything" and lack of tactile buttons. But whatever, I'm sure it will sell. ~~~ nikofeyn i had to double back and check where i came from, as i said out loud to myself “wait, is this a joke?”. ------ pissedattesla This is a design abomination and a colossal mistake. Like many, I've been a fan of Tesla from the beginning because of the beautiful and tantalizing design language which was backed up with mind boggling performance. It made you aspire for the vehicle. Why would Tesla mess with that formula? This truck is horrendous, an absolute beast. This looks like a high school science project gone bad. I actually thought the whole thing was a joke and I was waiting for Elon to smash it with the sledge hammer at the end to reveal a prince of a vehicle underneath a frog skin. It never happened and I was speechless. Yes, the features and specs were in keeping with Tesla's awe- inspiring tradition. But, I can't say the same for the design. Elon, we're all human beings and we make mistakes. Please fix and re-do. Your company reputation and survival depend on this. I am utterly shocked and extremely disappointed. Jay K.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Patrick Vlaskovits, Explains CustDev & Lean Startup in a Nutshell \| Foundora - akramquraishi http://www.foundora.com/2010/11/09/patrick-vlaskovits-co-author-of-entrepreneurs-guide-to-custdev-explains-custdev-lean-startup/ ====== akramquraishi Excerpts: What Steve describes in "The Four Steps to the Epiphany," is a method of doing that in four stages but when Brant and I sat to talk to Steve about this, Steve himself said, "if I can convince people just to get out of the building, they have done 90% of what needs to be done." And, getting out of the building means getting out and talking to humans about the problem, the solution and the product. It’s not feature mongering, it’s not market research, - it’s trying to really find the pain points and depending on who you are, this can be pretty difficult or very easy.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Next-generation solar cells pass strict international tests - headalgorithm https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2020/05/22/perovskite-solar-cells-pass-strict-international-tests.html ====== jsingleton This is a great long read (if you like log graphs) on how solar prices have dropped more than anyone predicted: [https://rameznaam.com/2020/05/14/solars- future-is-insanely-c...](https://rameznaam.com/2020/05/14/solars-future-is- insanely-cheap-2020/) > This incredible pace of solar cost decline, with average prices in sunny > parts of the world down to a penny or two by 2030 or 2035, is just > remarkable. Building new solar would routinely be cheaper than operating > already built fossil fuel plants, even in the world of ultra-cheap natural > gas we live in now. This is what I’ve called the third phase of clean > energy, where building new clean energy is cheaper than keeping fossil fuel > plants running. Even in places like Northern Europe, by the later 2030s we’d > see solar costs below the operating cost of fossil fuels, providing cheap > electricity in summer months with their very long days in the high > latitudes. These prices would be disruptive to a large fraction of already > operating fossil fuel power plants – particularly coal power plants, that > are far less able to ramp their power flexibly... (hat tip to the Forge the Future newsletter: [https://forgethefuture.substack.com/?no_cover=true](https://forgethefuture.substack.com/?no_cover=true)) I predict a lot of fossil plants will convert to simply providing inertia for grid stabilisation and charge for the service. They won't burn anything any more and may even demolish their stacks and cooling towers. They will just keep their generators and turbines connected to the grid as a big virtual flywheel to dampen spikes in demand / supply and maintain the AC frequency within tolerance. ~~~ jiofih Seems like that role will also be moved over to battery installations, as they have an instant response time vs long minutes for a plant. ~~~ akjssdk Battery installations are still relatively expensive right for the capacity they offer right? ~~~ ZeroGravitas That's a very general statement, but solar plus lithium battery storage is now competitive with gas peaker plants and those can grid balance as an extra service. ------ henearkr IIRC, there are some nasty heavy metals in some perovskites. Does anybody know which type is used in these projects? I'm 3000% in favor of solar, but still it bothers me if they use Pb etc... ~~~ borkt I focused on PV in college and the fact is solar is dirty and they haven't planned for end of life recycling. The potential is great and we will get there im sure, but I always thought it was irresponsible to subsidize and widely roll out especially the early stuff in the 90s that was very inefficient and filled with heavy metals and REE. I'm not up to date now but the only thing I can say is at least the efficiency is better even if they are using similarly toxic elements. ~~~ iamthemonster I'm probably much less well-informed than you, but I can't understand the arguments about the disposal of the panels at the end of their life. I throw away a wheelie-bin worth of trash every single week, that's 1040 wheelie bins over a 20-year panel lifetime, yet those panels are probably equivalent to about two wheelie bins. It's a microscopic volume. What is in solar panels that is such a disaster compared to household trash? In 20 years I also expect to go through ten phones and five computers (although admittedly I'd chuck them into the local electronics recycling bin). ~~~ nimish Heavy metals in thin film, mostly. Cadmium isn't great. They can be highly recycled though. Nevertheless, if a storm destroys a bunch of panels lots of cadmium will be dispersed ~~~ henearkr Cadmium telluride is not the prefered technology for solar cells. Silicon is still the major player, and it is free of any pollutants. I checked the wikipedia page for "solar cell". Given these informations, any consumer or technologist can adopt solar without compromising on pollutants. ------ kitotik So is part of the bet here that future potential efficiency numbers will continue to increase at a rate faster than silicon can? Or is strictly a low cost play? ~~~ ResearchAtPlay Efficiency improvements amplify cost reduction per kWh electricity: An ever growing share of PV system costs stems from every item that is not a a module (inverter, cables, labour etc). Modules are becoming cheaper faster than other components, so reducing module costs further has diminishing returns. In contrast, taking your module efficiency from 20% to 21% increases electricity generation by 5% and thus reduces costs per kWh by 5%. ------ einpoklum We should always remember additional factors to the equation, including: * The materials involved in production of such cells and of power-stations/fields based on them - in particular, their rarity and/or their toxicity. * The sustainability and environmental impact of procuring the materials. * Longevity of the cells. * Recyclability / decomposability of the cells at end-of-life. * Logistical considerations in setting up and operating solar cell fields, specifically of this type. * Ease/cost/frequency of maintenance on these cells, individually and in a solar-field, when in operation. and perhaps other factors I'm forgetting. Still, the materials science achievement is to be lauded. ~~~ BiteCode_dev Anything using fossil energy also has such hidden issues. And you have to consider the ecosystem: \- fossil fuel engines require much more maintenance than electrical engines, and now vehicules always embed heavy electronics anyway. \- fuel need to be transported at a heavy cost, which is now hidden by the massive demand. The day we use more solar than fossil, the whole fossil infra will suddenly feels very expensive \- most countries are not like the US and don't have oil on their soil. Countries don't like to be dependant on others for critical things. You may buy solar panels (or fuel engine) from a friendly country, but if things turn out badly, people can't cut sunlight from you one the initial setup is there. Nothing is perfect of course, but I like the solar future we are hinted at. ~~~ einpoklum I didn't suggest fossil-fuel-based energy production is superior. Having said that - maintenance of cars using fossil fuels is not a relevant comparison, since we're talking about power plants. Personally, I doubt that we can just -whoosh- swap the coal and petroleum for solar-based electricity and have our problems solved. It's likely that a lot of social effort to conserve more and waste less energy will be necessary to reach some sort of long-term-sustainable state of affairs. ------ LockAndLol So encasing the cells in glass stopped decomposition? There was no pressure buildup in the cells? No gasses released? The test says it's 1800 hours of stressful conditions for the cells. Assuming 10h of sunlight per day, that's 180 days of stability. I guess time will tell how long they really last, but it's good news that they surpassed test requirements. And having a 25% conversion rate baseline compared to a ~26% assumed max for silicon is also impressive. I wonder how much they can boost that. ------ kumarski Gonna chime in here, have a weak materials engineering background. The material economics go wild if you try to solve for stability of perovskite. You really don't know how much this thing is going to cost. With perovskite, from what I remember, you get the nice efficiencies with lead based perovskites. This increases the price of electricity as you layer it on top and you get an extra 2% efficiency. ------ darksaints I've passively followed the perovskite revolution for a while now, and the constant claim is that they're cheaper. But how cheap? Nobody can ever seem to quantify it. ~~~ philipkglass The raw materials for perovskite cells are cheap, but so are the raw materials for silicon cells. There won't be hard cost numbers on perovskite PV modules until they go into volume manufacturing. They won't go into volume manufacturing until they can be stabilized enough to last years in the field. My personal guess is that single-junction perovskite cells will not ever overtake single-junction silicon cells for rooftop or utility scale solar. Single junction perovskite cells may be used in applications where light weight and flexibility are advantageous, like charging portable electronics, if they can be stabilized. Perovskite cells _may_ compete in rooftop/utility solar with conventional silicon when incorporated into tandem cell designs -- either perovskite on silicon or a stack of different perovskites with different band gaps. That gives them the potential to exceed conventional crystalline silicon module efficiency rather than merely play catch-up. The company that seems to be furthest along with this approach is Oxford PV, which is pursuing a perovskite/silicon tandem design: [https://www.oxfordpv.com/perovskite-silicon- tandem](https://www.oxfordpv.com/perovskite-silicon-tandem) ~~~ powerslacker Full disclosure, I know next to nothing about solar markets. What about putting panels on vehicles? Couldn't the market for cells on vehicles overtake the existing solar market? ~~~ mkl If your goal is to power the car while driving, even 100% efficient solar cells wouldn't be enough, as there simply isn't enough surface area to gather enough energy to power a normal car doing normal driving. If your goal is to leave the car sitting charging in the sun all day, that's a bit more practical, but I believe there aren't yet any production vehicles like that yet: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car) ~~~ hnick Solar trees could help for the parking, but I don't know how the economics of that plays out. ------ econcon Last time I was installing panels, panel were fairly cheap. More expensive were inverter, controller, batteries. ------ bufferoverflow TL;DR: 500 times thinner, much cheaper, 25.2% efficiency, but not durable at all. ~~~ phkahler Now they have a coating that protects them. TFA did not say how much that changed efficiency, if at all. ------ Fielddisturb Low cost energy? Think twice, the population is controlled by this expense mostly! It's a nice utopian dream, scientifically achievable, but politically not viable. ------ roenxi The uncertainties here are demonstrated by the fact that the article is quoting 25.2% efficiencies. Solar panel efficiency wouldn't matter as much as the ratio of energy/m2/$ ratio. Nobody cares if a solar panel is 2% efficient if it costs 100 times less to fabricate and install. Just build more of them. Still, it is good news to see this sort of energy research bearing fruit. ~~~ yardie When we kitted our boat with solar panels the cheapest part of the entire system were the panels, ~$1/W. Half of the budget went into mounting and the fabrication of the mounting hardware and 1/3, or the remainder, went to wiring and controllers. This nearly lines up with domestic solar. 1/3 to panles, 1/3 to frames and mounting, and 1/3 towards electrical. Panels at 2% efficiency would be wildly uneconomical at practical any price. ~~~ roenxi > Panels at 2% efficiency would be wildly uneconomical at practical any price. I guarantee that is wrong, if the price got low enough it would be economical. Wikipedia suggests to me [0] plants operate at 3-6%, and plants are extremely economical. Even starving African children can afford access to plants. If solar panels were as cheap and easy to produce/distribute as plants but could be plugged in to a grid then 2% efficiency would be wildly economical - it would be the greatest energy revolution in human history. [0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency) ~~~ anoncareer0212 Lots to unpack here - is there a more straightforward way to word your argument here? To put GP's post in terms of yours, the planters and water cost much more than the plant, so even if "starving kids in Africa can afford access to plants", it doesn't mean greenhouses are free ~~~ roenxi It isn't an analogy. Plants are literal solar systems. The only reasons they can't be plugged into the grid is they deal with energy chemically instead of electrically. It doesn't require that much imagination to say that solar cells might one day be work in an extremely similar fashion to plants. Not likely, but not an outrageous thought. Nature has produced a cheaper, more ubiquitous and more self-replicating solar system using efficiencies in the 5% range with a theoretical cap of 11%. That suggests we don't need 25% efficiency to accomplish amazing things. It isn't a critical metric. ~~~ perl4ever I'm fine with your equation of plants with solar power. But it's not cheaper; look at the price of biofuels. Aren't they in fact more expensive than fossil fuels and solar panels? ~~~ robotbikes I think most biofuel is currently more expensive because it is diverting high input monoculture crops that are typically grown for feed like say corn ethanol or soybean oil. I believe ethanol from sugar cane in Brazil was cheap but only because the humans laboring to harvest it and process it were paid very little. But yeah the current choice of using industrially farmed high input crops to source biofuel does make it expensive. I think ultimately heavily refined energy dense fuel does require lots of time or energy input to produce.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Alternatives to setting up a Massachusetts LLC - matt1 I live in Massachusetts and run a small web app that brings in about $600/month.<p>While it's a low risk endeavor, I'd like to get liability protection to cover me in the event of some catastrophe. Setting up and operating a Massachusetts LLC costs $500/year [1], which s a lot relative to the app's income.<p>Setting up and operating a Delaware LLC, on the other hand, is $90 formation fee + $200/year franchise tax + $50/year for a registered agent ($250/year), which isn't much better, especially when you factor in the complexity of doing it out of state.<p>Have any of you been in a similar spot? Any recommendations on how to proceed?<p>[1] http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cor/corpweb/corllc/llcinf.htm ====== svedlin Nevada is excellent (no corporate income tax, statutory indemnification, some privacy protections). Colorado is now the cheapest place to file: $50 to form an LLC + $0.99 annual filing fee assuming you do everything online. [http://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/info_center/fees/business.ht...](http://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/info_center/fees/business.html#BIZ) Most LLCs don't pay corporate income tax anyway (it passes through to the members). ------ jaz If you form an LLC outside of MA, and that entity carries out business inside MA, you will most likely need to register as a foreign LLC with the SOTS [1] - which costs $500. Not a lawyer, but I've been through this before. [1] [http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cor/corpweb/corfllc/fllcinf.htm#a...](http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cor/corpweb/corfllc/fllcinf.htm#anchor1609293) ~~~ bricestacey Also includes a $500/year annual report. Ouch. ------ davidw I think Nevada is supposed to be pretty good. The problem, however, is that you live and do business in Massachusetts, so you would need to have something there in any event - as I understand things, at least.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Alarming study shows massive insect loss - dschuetz https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/10/15/hyperalarming-study-shows-massive-insect-loss/ ====== jfk13 Duplicate of [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18222888](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18222888) ~~~ dschuetz You're right :O I wonder why the submission wasn't merged... EDIT: Different URLs, oh well. ------ macawfish This is devastating. Surely our dumbass (monoculture) agricultural and (monoculture) development methods bear blame for this. Surely our obsession with hierarchical power structures is a driver. There is also a mass microbial extinction occurring right now: [https://www.newscientist.com/article/2094423-microbial- mass-...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2094423-microbial-mass- extinctions-were-kicked-off-by-human-evolution/) I'm exhausted of this consumer society that quashes all appreciation for the dynamic, the non-linear, the relationships of the micro to the macro, of the individual to the mass, of ecologies. Words can't express my irritation for the blindness of techno-utopians who think we should aim to be happier on Mars. Get a clue! This is our chance to terraform earth back to health! If we can't do that now, there really isn't a chance in hell we could do it with Mars. We need to fall in love with earth again, with all of its creatures, including humans, and even mosquitoes. By perpetuating that live-in-space fantasy, you're sealing the fate of peoples' hearts, crushing the precious seeds of hope and trust in earth's fragile life system, and in humans' potential to bond with earth sustainably. _(Sometimes I do wish ignorant power mongerers and unrepentant rapists would go take a long time-out in the void of space. Maybe that would catalyze the spiritual realization we desperately need them to have. The risk, of course, is alienation.)_ Okay... So everything you and I do and say right now matters tremendously. We are at a critical point. It's all that ever has mattered but it especially matters now. I saw someone below talking about rewilding some spent grazing land. That's real stuff, thank you. ~~~ busyant > I'm exhausted of this consumer society that quashes all appreciation for the > dynamic, the non-linear, the relationships of the micro to the macro, of the > individual to the mass, of ecologies. I used to work as a microbiologist / geneticist. One of the standard exercises that beginning microbiology students perform is to * take a small number of bacteria * inoculate the bacteria into a sterile container of liquid "food" * measure bacterial growth in the container versus time Once the bacteria get going, there's an exponential explosion in their growth. "Exponential" growth continues until they begin to exhaust their resources (food). I used to think about that a lot ("How dumb the bacteria are. They can't plan for the future. They're unaware of how they fit into the larger picture and they just 'race' w/ each other until they deplete their own resources."). Collectively, I'm not sure we are much different. ~~~ rleigh I did the same experiment, and often have the same thought. We might be intelligent, but collectively we do seem to act in the same manner. ------ gmjoe Key paragraphs: > _The food web appears to have been obliterated from the bottom. It’s > credible that the authors link the cascade to arthropod loss, Schowalter > said, because “you have all these different taxa showing the same trends — > the insectivorous birds, frogs and lizards — but you don’t see those among > seed-feeding birds.”_ > _Lister and Garcia attribute this crash to climate. In the same 40-year > period as the arthropod crash, the average high temperature in the rain > forest increased by 4 degrees Fahrenheit. The temperatures in the tropics > stick to a narrow band. The invertebrates that live there, likewise, are > adapted to these temperatures and fare poorly outside them; bugs cannot > regulate their internal heat._ ~~~ smackay Seed-eating birds spend a lot of time gathering insects to feed their young. I presume also seed plants are dependent on pollinators. Certainly this is just an armchair comment but I would have expected the effect to show up across the board. ~~~ ocschwar The reason it isn't is that this study is based in Puerto Rico, where the bugs don't have the option of migrating north. In the US mainland, yes, this is happening, and it's harming insects, but the main result is migration, not extinction. ------ jenks This is absolutely horrifying. Insects are mother nature's sex organs! In 1945 after world war 2, the US had an abundance of ammunition supply and decided do make use of it in other means than warfare. They used that ammunition supply to make Chemical NPK fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and rodenticides. This was the onset of commercial farming and - not so ironically - exactly when the world insect popluation started decreasing! Now we are just seeing it in its most drastic potential. Pesticides not only destroy the detoxifying organs in our body upon consumption, they also destroy the basis of every ecosystem on Earth! They don't stop at just killing insects though. Ever hear of the phrase of war "Salt the earth", where countries would pour salt over airable land to knock out the enemies food supplies? Pesticides are salts! They destroy the Humus of the soil which contains all of the microfungi and microorganisms which have a symbiotic relationship with the roots of the plant to send filaments of nutrients through the roots and receive sap from the roots in return. When you realize that the food you're getting is so much less nutrient dense than food that was farmed organically which actually obeys the laws of nature, you begin to realize that this commercially farmed food literally takes more energy and nutrients out of your body in the processes of digestion, metabolization, assimilation, and elimination than you get from the food! ~~~ majos >Pesticides not only destroy the detoxifying organs in our body upon consumption What? Do you mean by _direct_ consumption or residually on food? > you begin to realize that this commercially farmed food literally takes more > energy and nutrients out of your body in the processes of digestion, > metabolization, assimilation, and elimination than you get from the food! Confused by this too. By this logic those of us who rely on commercially farmed food (most of us) should be continually wasting away and soon dying, which is not the case ~~~ jenks As i mentioned, commercial farming leads to less nutrient dense food. The processes of digestion, metabolization, assimilation, and elimination each take energy and nutrients to work. Foods grown in low-vitamin dense soil inherently have less nutrients to provide the organism which consumes them. Be cautious in your assumption that everything is great with commercially farmed food. Widespread disease, reliance on stimulants like coffee, energy drinks, and even as extreme as ADHD medicine being given to children - even though the effects are almost identical to those of people being on cocaine - are becoming more widespread the more prevalent commercial farming becomes. The rate of cancer in 1900 was 1 in 30, 1980 it was 1 in 5, 1990 1 in 4, 1995 1 in 3, 2000 1 in 2. Correlation? causation? It's impossible to tell, but the idea that engineering mother nature to make her work more efficiently than the way she has engineered life over millions of years has yet to ever work in our favor each time we have tried throughout history. ~~~ majos > Foods grown in low-vitamin dense soil inherently have less nutrients to > provide the organism which consumes them. Even taking this as a given, "less nutrient dense" is far from "so nutrient poor that digestion literally takes more energy than the food contains", which is what your original comment claimed. > The rate of cancer in 1900 was 1 in 30, 1980 it was 1 in 5, 1990 1 in 4, > 1995 1 in 3, 2000 1 in 2. Ok. The cancer _diagnosis_ rate has skyrocketed. That's a different point. In many ways this is good -- it means more people are living long enough with medical care to get a diagnosis. > the idea that engineering mother nature to make her work more efficiently > than the way she has engineered life over millions of years has yet to ever > work in our favor each time we have tried throughout history What? GMOs have worked out on a massive scale, improving billions of lives through new drought/pestilence/act-of-God-resistant strains. I'm with you that agribusiness has many problems and bad actors, but the claims you're making go really far. ------ CalRobert I am currently trying to buy a few acres of land. It's currently grazing land, but I'd like to rewild most of it. By any chance, can someone suggest a good source for learning how to do so in a way that encourages insect, bee, and bird populations? It's near a bog so I'm hoping it can have a bigger impact than it would in isolation. ~~~ dejv You can go as deep as you want, but the basic checklist could be (for case when you don't want to have productive farm land): \- make sure there is some type of water on your property, shallow pond would be ok \- build different biotopes: leave some pasture area, plant patches of different bushes. \- plant some fruit trees and few solitair trees (depending on your geography it might be oak, linden or whatever. Ask at your garden center) \- build/buy and place different insect hotels in various parts of property \- when mowing the grass always leave some part (say 1/3) intact \- I am not familiar with situation in US, but in Europe you can find mixes of wild species seedings for given geography. You can use those to speed up biodiversity growth in the area. ~~~ CalRobert Thanks! As it turns out I went sale agreed about 30 minutes after my comment. It's in the Irish midlands and I'll be living there as well in a 210ish year old cottage, which will certainly be a shift. For dealing with the grass I had some idea that sheep might be friendlier than mowing, but sheep also tend to destroy everything in their path and stop seedlings. I was thinking I might try to grow food in this model - [http://www.themarketgardener.com/book/](http://www.themarketgardener.com/book/) \- but that would be on less than half the space. Clearly I have lots of research to do. ~~~ Heliosmaster May I recommend "Practical Self Sufficiency"? A few years ago they even made a British TV-series "It's not easy (being green)": [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Practical-Self-Sufficiency- Complete...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Practical-Self-Sufficiency-Complete- Sustainable/dp/1405344415/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539705229&sr=8-1&keywords=dick+strawbridge) ~~~ mark-r The British TV-series that came to mind for me was "The Good Life" ("Good Neighbors" in the US). Wouldn't be much practical help however. ------ JulianMorrison Ask someone over 50 who drives, do you remember bugs on your windshield? Having to run the wipers because it was that bad? Ask them when they last remember that being an issue. I'm guessing some time in the 1980s. There are kids who drive these days and never had bugs on their windshield. They don't realize it's not normal. ~~~ jvreagan I remember driving 6 hours from home back to college during August in the midwest and having to stop every couple hours at a gas station just to clean the windshield. Now its rare to hit an insect on the road. ~~~ LeifCarrotson What car were you driving then? What car or cars have you driven recently? ------ lisper > the catch rate in the sticky ground traps fell 60-fold. This sentence made it hard for me to take the article seriously. What does a 60-fold _decrease_ even _mean_? I understand what a 60-fold _increase_ means: it means that there is now 60 times more than before. But it's not possible for there to be 60 times less than before for a quantity that cannot be negative. So we are left to wonder. Does it mean that there is now 1/60th as much as before? That is a peculiarly precise number. Is it really 1/60th i.e. 1.67% and not, say, 1/59th (1.69%)? Whatever the truth is, this sentence is obscuring it. I don't mean to cast any doubt on the proposition that there is a serious problem here. This is a criticism of the journalism, not the science. ~~~ hw_penfold I think the natural interpretation is that the January 1977 numbers showed a value 60 times greater than the January 2013 value. (the dry weight of all the captured invertebrates) Here's a direct link to the relevant graph: [http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2018/10/09/1722477115...](http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2018/10/09/1722477115/F2.large.jpg) Full publication: [http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/10/09/1722477115](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/10/09/1722477115) ~~~ lisper That would indeed be a not-entirely-unreasonable interpretation except for two things: 1\. Why not just say that the numbers went down by 98% (i.e. 59/60)? 2\. If you look at the graph, the numbers clearly went down by less than 98%. ------ qwerty456127 I wish we could loose mosquitoes and ticks... ~~~ aninteger And cockroaches. ~~~ qwerty456127 It seems we've already lost cockroaches in Europe, I haven't seen any since the end of the 20th century. Whatever, I don't really mind them as they don't bite. ~~~ AnaniasAnanas There are still a lot of them in southern Europe. ------ fallingfrog So, we have one study in Puerto Rico, and one in Germany. I think we really need to figure out whether this effect is real, if it is global, and what is the cause. I guess I'd advocate not panicking until we know more- this isn't on the level of certainty of climate change yet, where we are absolutely certain that the Earth is warming. ------ titzer Paywall-free article from The Independent: [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/insect- population...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/insect-population- decrease-hyper-alarming-puerto-rico-rainforest-invertebrate-bugs- america-a8586126.html)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
There’s a rootkit in the closet - cyberviewer http://www.void.gr/kargig/blog/2009/08/21/theres-a-rootkit-in-the-closet/ ====== vog There’s something that puzzles me. The author found a rootkit and saw that it was integrated very deeply in the system. Yet he tried to fix the system _from within_! Only after some failed attempts to download and install a new kernel, he finally did the Right Thing and shut down the server to analyze the hard disk from outside. To everyone who encounters such a rootkit, I strongly recommend to _skip this second step_. If you see such a deeply integrated rootkit, shut down the computer immediately! _No fiddling!_ Then, take out the hard disk and copy and analyze it as described in the article. Otherwise, you’d enable the rootkit to hide its traces, and to maybe destroy some data. You don’t learn anything from that fiddling. Satisfy your curiosity only _after perpetuating evidence_! (i.e. after copying the hard disk’s data) ------ ratsbane Upvoted both for the content and expository writing style. He did a nice job not just of solving the problem but also showing how he did it. ------ barrkel If this style of interception becomes popular, it seems to argue for a statically linked busybox or similar that uses syscalls directly. ~~~ colonelxc The nice thing about this method is that you don't have to muck about in the kernel with a kernel module or anything like that. Also, you don't have to replace any binaries on the system, so everything _looks_ fine to an md5 comparison. Also, if you've setup something like tripwire to only watch specific configuration files and services, it might not catch the newly created /etc/ld.so.preload file. Some programs (such as login), are already statically compiled to prevent this exact thing from happening. ~~~ viraptor I think that the default tripwire config (and definitely the default samhain config) includes monitoring new files in /etc, so at least there's that protection. Unfortunately not many people use those applications in real deployments. ------ iman It's often said that privilege escalation under Linux is very easy. Why is Linux so insecure in this aspect? Why does OpenBSD not suffer from local root exploits?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Innovative robotics developments of the past year - dnetesn https://techxplore.com/news/2019-01-ten-robotics-year.html ====== msadowski If you've enjoyed this article then you might also like my compilation of what I think were the most important/interesting news or projects that I've found about in 2018: [http://weeklyrobotics.com/weekly- robotics-2018](http://weeklyrobotics.com/weekly-robotics-2018) ------ genericone Does someone have a list that is more about actual innovations and less about products not even developed in 2018? ~~~ Eridrus sim2real research for robotics is super exciting. For all the work Boston Dynamics has done making carefully hand-tuned locomotion controllers, recent work has made that basically learnable in simulation, and then transferable to the real world: [https://youtu.be/aTDkYFZFWug](https://youtu.be/aTDkYFZFWug) ~~~ jcims That’s _super_ interesting, thank you for sharing. Lex Fridman has a recording of the CEO of Boston Dynamics on his podcast. It was from a lecture Q&A at MIT I believe. And in there he talks about the control challenges as though they are likely the bigger problem to tackle vs. the mechanical (which seems obvious on one hand but interesting to hear him say). In an off-handed comment he said how hooking the mechanics up to a person (so they could run the robot in a fly by wire way) shows just how fast the machine is and how much the software/sensor/controller stacks are slowing them down. He also discusses their simulation capabilities a bit. It definitely sounds like there is some software training going on, but this obviously cranks the fidelity up quite a bit. Would be cool to see how they train it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Interactive Data Visualization of Geospatial Data - adilmoujahid http://adilmoujahid.com/posts/2016/08/interactive-data-visualization-geospatial-d3-dc-leaflet-python/ ====== petepete This is fantastic. I'm planning to build something similar in the coming months. Only minor nit pick, not the easiest to read on mobile [http://m.imgur.com/Uloatup.jpg](http://m.imgur.com/Uloatup.jpg) ~~~ adilmoujahid Thanks for the feedback! I will fix it. ------ tmostak Very cool! Dc.js is a very powerful and quick way to build interactive crossfiltered charts. At MapD we built our own visualization frontend using Dc.js as a base, except we leverage GPUs on the backend both for SQL and rendering data. The upshot is we can scale to multi-billion row datasets with millisecond response times. You can see an example with 200M streaming geocoded tweets here - [https://www.mapd.com/demos/tweetmap](https://www.mapd.com/demos/tweetmap). ------ markovbling Awesome! The GIF is great but would really love a link to a live demo to play with :) Didn't know could do heatmap via leaflet - does it respond to crossfilter filtering?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Empirical explanation for Craig Wright's selfish mining Bitcoin bet - grano http://www.andygranowitz.com/2018/04/12/empirical-explanation-craig-wright-selfish-mining-bitcoin-bet.html ====== munro This makes me think of the classic Monty Hall problem, where Monty opens a door and asks if you would like to switch or stay.. which is actually giving you information that the door opened was a goat (which he had to do if you picked the door with the other goat). So when try to understand "how long until the block is mined?" at t=10, you're given information that the block has not been mined yet and have to update your predictions, thus making the average time from t=10 another 10 minutes away. The hard part I have internalizing is if I were to make a progress bar for block mining, it would be totally useless because it'd always show 10 minutes away, until BOOM it hits 100% when a block is found (or someone else does). Then I had a realization that it's the wrong question to ask because the time is truly unknown, but instead we could show a "progress" bar of the percentile! So starts at 0.1%, then 5%, then 50% (median time whatever that is). Thinking this way becomes very intuitive, because now you're no longer wondering when it will finish, but instead are given a benchmark of survival time and can think things like "crazy, only 1% of blocks have taken more than 40 minutes to mine." and at the same time get the piece of mind of seeing something "progress" while at the same time being comfortable that it will never finish, until it does. ~~~ madavidj It's almost like a reverse Monty Hall problem. In the Monty Hall, the extra bit of information seems useless, but is actually useful. In a poisson process, the extra bit of information seems useful, but is actually useless. ------ CyberDildonics Don't promote this guy, it should be obvious he is a conman. He claimed to be the creator of bitcoin ten years ago using C++ and Qt, yet there is no other software that he has written anywhere to be found. He claimed he would sign a message with the private key from the genesis block, yet never did. Instead he used a previously signed message to dupe people. Here is a blog post that he edited to make it look like he was working on cryptocurrency in 2008: [https://i.imgur.com/hAbPhW3.png](https://i.imgur.com/hAbPhW3.png) Here is a compilation of evidence against his claims: [https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/89bui6/buterin_about_c...](https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/89bui6/buterin_about_csw_why_is_this_fraud_allowed_to/dwq8egl/) He made these claims to get funding for his company which is now on a tear to patent everything they can: [https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special- report/bitcoin-...](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special- report/bitcoin-wright-patents/) His selfish mining paper was also found to have large parts plagiarized from previous papers published in the 90s. ------ tromp Closely related, [1] previously discussed the paradoxical fact that: If you pick a random point in time, you expect 20 minutes between the previous block and the next block on average. [1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16469382](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16469382) ~~~ usmannk Not quite. The paradoxical fact is that if you pick a random point in time, it’s expected that there is 20 minutes between that point and the next block. Even if there’s already been 20 minutes since the previous block! Edit: woops! See below. ~~~ tgb The original poster had it right - you are mistakenly thinking that the block time is 20 minutes when it's 10. Once you make that correction, you are both correct. ------ KirinDave I knew Wright was shady, but did he seriously bet that an exponential distribution doesn't have the properties it is known to have? Cuz, uh, wow. ------ oh_sigh Wright getting simple math(relative to the math in Bitcoin) wrong is even more evidence that he is not Satoshi - not that anyone particularly needed more evidence ------ barbegal Craig Wright would be correct if not for the information that the dishonest miners found the "next" block. If anyone could have found the next block and the dishonest miners simply found a block at t=0 then the expected time for the honest miners to find a block would be at t=5 minutes. ~~~ __blockcipher__ Nope, this is totally wrong. To put it bluntly, please stop spreading this garbage. CSW completely misunderstood memorylessness (which, just to state the obvious, is solid bayesian evidence that he is not Satoshi). Regardless of the knowledge of the participants, it will always take an EV of 10 minutes when alpha = 1, or an EV = 15 given alpha = 2/3 in this example. ~~~ barbegal I completely agree but in this formulation of the problem the honest miners started at t=-10 so may have found the block before the dishonest miners in the timeframe from t=-10 to t=0. ~~~ __blockcipher__ They did not, that is (perhaps implicitly) part of the problem description. It never says the honest miner finds block N, it asks when they are expected to implying it hadn't happen up to that point. Also, the dishonest miner found the "next block" but did not broadcast it at t=0, which is essentially irrelevant information because it doesn't matter whether the honest miners know about the hidden block or not, either way it will take them an EV of 15 minutes at any given point in time regardless of knowledge ------ 908087 Something I've rarely seen asked in regards to the "Bitcoin will become the main global currency" fever dream fantasy is this: Who would want to live in a world where a new multi-trillionaire class is created out of thin air, particularly given the shady history of many who would be among those people? What blows my mind is that the people I see hoping for this are often the same ones claiming Bitcoin will _improve_ global wealth inequality. If you think high wealth individuals have too much control and too little accountability now, just think about what would happen if people who hoarded Bitcoin drug profits and people like Brock Pierce suddenly held hundreds of billions of dollars or more, all of which was liquid. ~~~ bdcravens Not really sure how this comment relates to the submitted article. This feels more like if (HN_title.contains('Bitcoin')) { express_generic_opinion(); }	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How to Get Started with Competitive Programming – Scaler Academy - sonalid1705 https://scaleracademy.blogspot.com/2020/06/how-to-get-started-with-competitive-programming.html ====== sonalid1705 Since the problems posed to a programmer includes a considerable variety of approaches that a programmer needs to follow, programmers use commonly defined techniques and structures to solve these problems. This helps the programmer to manage the data in the problem efficiently, and approach the problem in a structured way.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
WonderSwipe: Rethink Search, 10–100x faster than mobile browsers you are used to - hackergary http://wonderswipe.com ====== hackergary Direct app store link: [https://itunes.apple.com/app/wonderswipe- research/id13367409...](https://itunes.apple.com/app/wonderswipe- research/id1336740934?mt=8) Medium post for why: [https://medium.com/wonderswipe/rethink-mobile- search-10-100x...](https://medium.com/wonderswipe/rethink-mobile- search-10-100x-faster-introducing-wonderswipe-6f2ff0d0e667) Would really appreciate thoughts from other devs and web searchers alike.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Watch out TinyURL, Cligs is much better for us - ajbatac http://blog.go2web20.net/2008/09/watch-out-tinyurl-cligs-is-much-better.html ====== joshu I despise URL shorteners. They mostly exist to triage broken email client linewrap; more recently they fit links into SMS for twitter. This is functionality that should be fixed in the mail client, or be built into twitter/whatever. Recently they add follow-counting, which I suppose makes people feel good - they want credit around sending people to a link, and they want metrics, I suppose. Again, this should be built into the app that is hosting the link. It adds a layer of unreliability to the internet. Long-term they all will almost certainly have failures, disappear, bugs, database corruption, etc, rendering email and other documents useless. They also make the link blind, so you have no sense of what you're about to see, whether it might be worksafe, etc. They're marginally useful for the linker but they're bad for everyone else. ------ makimaki I think the main issue for these sites is reliability. I still remember many URL shortening services that sprung up in the last few years, before quietly going offline...URLtea is an example. People use tinyurl because they know the links will stay active, at least for a long time after they are posted. ~~~ thorax So is tinyurl too big to let fail? Spread the links around shortening services-- it's not like we need every URL you ever shortened to work forever. Also, some sites (like our little ri.ms site) also create a tinyurl for you so you can have those to fall back on if you need for whatever reason. ------ orli what do you think about this service: <http://tr.im/>? (as an alternative) ~~~ jsmcgd Probably the best name yet for this kind of service. ------ timcederman Shame about the name.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Avoid Windows Malware: Bank on a Live CD - baxter http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/10/avoid_windows_malware_bank_on.html ====== Jem > Virtually all of the data-stealing malware in circulation today is built to > attack Windows systems Well, no shit. That's the point. If you're a malware developer, you're not going to spend X hours trying to find an obscure hole in *nix.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Crystal language 0.20.0 released - binki89 https://crystal-lang.org/2016/11/22/crystal-0.20.0-released.html ====== fithisux still no windows or cygwin release. ~~~ binki89 That's true. I think that there is a good number of people out there who have been waiting for exactly this. Hopefully it will be available soon but unfortunately I know of no signs that it is actively being worked on by anyone at the moment.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Security concerns keeping you from using BaaS providers? We got your back. - dmansen http://blog.cloudmine.me/post/21380529268/application-level-data-security ====== jpdoctor Security is one concern, but business risk is a much bigger concern.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
BitBar - put the output from any script/program in your Mac OS X Menu Bar - matryer https://github.com/stretchr/bitbar#bitbar BitBar lets you put the output from any script/program in your Mac OS X Menu Bar. Powerful tool for developers who use a mac. ====== matryer I use it to keep track of the current BitCoin values on Coinbase.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Bringing Chance the Rapper to the Deaf - ALee https://www.gq.com/story/chance-the-rapper-sign-language-deafinitely-dope ====== warent It's probably just me personally as a teetotaler, but opening the article with praising a ritual of getting drunk/buzzed before executing a translation really set a lower bar for the rest of the article to me. Anyway, I think it's great he's able to help really bring shows to life for deaf people. Adding his own personality and style into it is tremendous ~~~ chickenfries Alcohol improving second language acquisition is something I remember hearing of in a Spanish class years ago, and it seems like there is some research to back it up: [https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/1901/how- doe...](https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/1901/how-does-alcohol- affect-the-ability-to-speak-a-second-language/1902#1902) ------ Rhapso Modern music + ASL is a fun thing: [https://www.youtube.com/user/1stopforasl](https://www.youtube.com/user/1stopforasl) I've been told by Deaf and hard-of-hearing people multiple times that they think they have more fun at concerts and clubs than hearing people. They get to enjoy the music and can still communicate effectively.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Does program written with Posix compile both on Linux and macOS? - tosieuda Also if macOS is POSIX certified why it is not easy to port macOS programs and libraries to Linux and reverse? ====== wahern IIRC I've found it extremely easy to support both macOS and Linux (as well as the *BSDs, and to a large extent Solaris and AIX), even when using non-POSIX, extension interfaces like epoll and kqueue. However, I do mostly systems and network programming. When you get into GUI apps there's no avoiding the immense differences between some APIs. Learning how to identify and carefully separate program components that can be reasonably kept portable is something you learn with experience. And experience only comes with practice. Also, I learned long ago that "porting" an application is typically a losing battle. If a program is not written with portability in mind from day 1, subsequent porting efforts will be so costly that you'll either abandon it altogether or conclude that portability is inherently costly and avoid it in the future. ------ wmf If a program uses only POSIX APIs then it should compile on Linux and macOS with minimal tweaking. But real apps use a lot of APIs that aren't included in POSIX, like Cocoa.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Steven Chu on energy efficiency - MikeCapone http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-chu/energy-efficiency-achievi_b_501263.html ====== jbarmash Great article. I am especially happy to hear it talk about measuring utility bills before and after retrofits, since a lot of improvements in this industry have been measured more on promises of improvement, as opposed on actual data (i.e. you will save 20% on heating by buying this boiler, and therefore, once installed, it's considered to save 20%). Pretty crazy way to do things. While there are a lot of new solutions for improving measurement of energy efficiency, a lot of them are focused on electricity, and unless you take the whole building into account, you aren't truly figuring out the costs. I can switch from electric heating to gas, but that doesn't make my house more efficient. The reality is that even with smart metering technologies, it will take many years to retrofit existing building stock (only 1% of the building stock gets replaces annually). Another area of a lot of activity here is the financing side - you see a lot of creative solutions popping up, and even banks are looking at energy efficiency as something they want to fund. The startup I am working on does sophisticated measurement of utility bills, and uses some cool analysis techniques to split it up into various components - heating, cooling, hot water, and nonseasonal fuel use. The goal is exactly what is described in the article - to allow people to compare before and after, to quickly figure out where the most potential savings are, etc. It's for agencies that run energy efficiency programs or owners of portfolios of buildings, as well as people interested in financing energy projects. We are doing a closed launch this week to a couple of beta customers, so this is very timely. We don't allow demo accounts yet, but if you are interested, sign up at www.energyscorecards.com to be notified when we launch publically. ~~~ lutorm That sounds really interesting. Is the idea to split up the energy use into different base functions by how it correlates with time of day, temperature, and season? I've been loosely playing around with the idea of doing this for my own house. ~~~ jbarmash Basically, your energy use roughly varies with seasons. So you can apply some analysis techniques to tease out how much of your energy is for heating, cooling, hot water, etc. Most of the data you can get reliably is monthly bill data, so we just do it in aggregate. I've seen some systems (for electric only) that do more granular data, i.e. hourly, or even real-time, and once you have those, you can tell much more - but that requires an installation of devices, and doesn't tell you about all of your energy use. You can then normalize it for size of the house, and weather conditions, and now you can compare buildings in different parts of the country, Once you have a model of the building, you can then make predictions about what the energy use should be if you make certain improvements, which leads to many possibilities. We are more focused on multi-family buildings, which have larger energy use and more opportunity for savings (but also complexity - you won't see steam- heated single-family homes :-)) There are some guys that are doing this for single-family homes, i.e. Microsoft Hohm is one, though I am not sure their analysis is quite as good. ~~~ lutorm "you won't see steam-heated single-family homes :-)" Actually, I have one! ;-) (Technically, it's a 3-apartment house, but each apartment has their own steam boiler.) ~~~ jbarmash Sorry, I wasn't clear enough - I meant municipal steam heat that comes to you in a pipe as a byproduct of electricity generation. <http://www.coned.com/steam/> Steam heating in homes is common, but the energy source is gas or heating oil that is used to generate steam. ------ Xichekolas I was impressed by the number of interesting concrete ideas he listed for improving efficiency and retrofits. Usually policy at that level is almost entirely focused on enticements to lower levels of government and other types of stick/carrot programs. To see the DoE developing actual technical solutions like software and hardware is very cool. In the same vein, the FCC has their broadband speed testing tool to gather data and make useful maps of speed vs. price and other factors, all to guide future policy decisions. Maybe this idea of running the executive branch based on data is widespread in the administration? If so, kudos. ~~~ lutorm My impression is that DOE is pretty hands-on in many energy research issues. They run the NREL (and the nuclear weapons labs) for example... ------ vinhboy "Some economists, however, don't believe....there aren't 20-dollar bills lying around waiting to be picked up....why didn't the free market vacuum them up?" I've always thought that inefficiencies are built in so industries, like the coal companies, can stay in business. ~~~ jerf You are hypothesizing a conspiracy between industries that are basically unconnected to each other. It seems a far more likely explanation that people want cheap homes _now_ and don't buy based on energy efficiency (which costs money), and that builders want to save money by not installing things that won't make the home sell for more. No conspiracy seems necessary. ~~~ jbarmash you are right about incentives being misaligned. In Europe, when you buy / sell a home, you get an energy report of how much you'll pay for utilities, so people are starting to take energy costs into account. This is becoming true in the US, with New York, Austin, DC, and Seattle passing building benchmarking laws in the past year. Many are focused on larger buildings, but it's a good beginning. This is especially important for larger buildings, esp. low-income housing, where owners pay for much of the energy, and thus are incentivized to be more efficient. ~~~ Xichekolas I think a really simple and sort of bash-you-over-the-head means to get this across to homebuyers would be to tack on the monthly utilities to the mortgage+tax number that people see. If you were comparing the price of two houses, you often look at the monthly cost of mortgage and taxes... so throwing utilities on there would make it more apparent which house will actually be cheaper over the long term.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Good Canadian hosting providers? - jd007 We are currently hosted on AWS (US-East), and recently one of our new Canadian clients have the requirement to be hosted in Canada (for legal reasons).<p>I looked around and found a few options, notably iWeb and Netelligent, but was wondering if anybody has any other good suggestion? Also if you've used iWeb or Netelligent before, could you share some of your experiences?<p>We are looking for server hosting for web services and websites, both dedicated and virtual could work.<p>Thanks! ====== thekonqueror I used iWeb for almost a year in 2010. Never had any issues with outage, network performance. Later switched to OVH Canada for lower costs, but I would pick iWeb over OVH if cost wasn't a concern.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Authenticated users can manipulate others fullname without their knowledge - 0xSaFi https://hackerone.com/reports/244567 ====== ksaj This is a bug report marked as resolved 3 years ago. Maybe I'm missing something.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The exFAT filesystem is coming to Linux–Paragon software’s not happy about it - Tomte https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/03/the-exfat-filesystem-is-coming-to-linux-paragon-softwares-not-happy-about-it/ ====== theamk Was the original press release retracted or something? Googling for quotes in the article doesn't find it. ------ rubatuga They're kind of onto something. A lot of open source tools are unnecessarily complex. For example, the absolute nightmare that is Samba configuration. Trying to force Samba to use SMBv3 was impossible, with every StackOverflow answer suggesting a different config. ~~~ theamk Good news we are talking about filesystem driver then, which has about 6 options total, and none of them are needed for a common case.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Lockdown was supposed to be an introvert’s paradise. For some it’s not - imartin2k https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615437/virtual-happy-hour-introverts-lockdown-coronavirus/ ====== brodouevencode There are several points with which I sympathize here. >> Everything feels like a meeting Yes. Even more now than ever. Especially talking to family and friends over Zoom/Slack/GH after spending all day talking to coworkers over Teams. Now that we're all work from home there's increased pressure to ensure we're online and available. We have persistent Team meetings set up that we'll drop in and out of as time permits. Sometimes I just like being alone with my thoughts. When everyone was allowed out and about I could sneak away as I wanted to. Not so much right now.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Books of Problem Sets - _spoonman Hi all,<p>Considering going through some MOOC's to brush up on and learn some new math. One thing I'm looking for are books containing tons of problem sets so I can practice (maybe ones with answers in the back). Are textbooks my only option here? ====== mindcrime A lot of times you can find old problem sets, quizzes and tests on the course websites for past sections of courses. Just google something like [https://www.google.com/search?q="linear+algebra"+problems+si...](https://www.google.com/search?q="linear+algebra"+problems+site%3A.edu) [https://www.google.com/search?num=50&newwindow=1&q=calculus+...](https://www.google.com/search?num=50&newwindow=1&q=calculus+tests+site%3A.edu) [https://www.google.com/search?num=50&newwindow=1&q=calculus+...](https://www.google.com/search?num=50&newwindow=1&q=calculus+quizzes+site%3A.edu) or variations on that theme. There's a ton of stuff out there. If you want a print book, check the various "Schaums Outlines" books, or books in the "For Dummies" series with "Workbook" in the title (ex, "Calculus Workbook for Dummies", etc.) There's also the "Problem Solvers" books and those "Humongous Book of X" books. For example: [https://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Solved-Problems-Calculus- Outl...](https://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Solved-Problems-Calculus- Outlines/dp/0071635343/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466045579&sr=1-2&keywords=calculus+problems) [https://www.amazon.com/Humongous-Book-Calculus- Problems/dp/1...](https://www.amazon.com/Humongous-Book-Calculus- Problems/dp/1592575129/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466045579&sr=1-1&keywords=calculus+problems) [https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Workbook-Dummies-Mark- Ryan/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Workbook-Dummies-Mark- Ryan/dp/1119013925/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466045660&sr=1-1&keywords=calculus+workbook+for+dummies) [https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Problem-Solver-Solvers- Solut...](https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Problem-Solver-Solvers- Solution/dp/0878915052/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466045679&sr=1-1&keywords=problem+solvers+calculus) and so on... ~~~ _spoonman Schaum's. Now that you mentioned it I think someone on HN was talking about that but couldn't for the life of me remember. Thanks for the feedback. ~~~ mindcrime Anytime. ------ lsiebert I believe reddit has a daily programming subreddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer](https://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
There’s No Silicon Valley In Europe — But TechHub Might Help - fjabre http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/09/24/europe-to-get-a-london-techhub-for-startups-to-meet-and-work-in/ ====== danohuiginn aargh, there are already too many hubs. Find a more distinctive name, please! [I'm particularly likely to confuse it with the-hub.net, but there are plenty of others] ------ ahoyhere The UK isn't REAAAALLY Europe, now is it? Culturally, it is much more American than any other place I've been, in terms of individualist boosterism and the desire for grand entreprenuerialism. And London already has quite a lot of VC, look-at-us-we're-high-tech! puffery. The smart tech people / startups from places like Vienna, Berlin, etc., already leave their homes and flock to London precisely for that reason. I, for one, want to figure out how to keep them in Vienna. Also, yeah. TechHub. How more generic can you get? ------ ilyak I'd say London won't do. Am I wrong?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why You Should Feel Deceived and Sickened by America's Stunning Inequality - jdp23 http://www.alternet.org/story/149477/ ====== jdp23 make sure to look at who wrote it ...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Monthly Amazon Prime membership fees are about to increase - el_duderino https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/19/your-monthly-amazon-prime-membership-fees-are-about-to-increase/ ====== untog Amazon has done what many others dream of: I basically forget that I'm paying for Prime every year. And I perceive that it gives me enough value that I don't mind, but I've never actually checked how many orders I place each year vs. the delivery cost for them if I didn't have Prime. By comparison, Google sends me an e-mail every month reminding me how much I'm paying for Google Play Music. I don't mind it, but I wonder if it affects their retention rates to do that. ~~~ takeda I actually quit it, because most of the times I'm perfectly fine waiting extra time, and am ok with holding certain items in my cart until I accumulate $25 to get a free shipping. They seem to artificially add delays to processing to discourage me, but I don't really order anything that I need immediately. Not having prime also prevents me from impulse buying. Also, majority of things that you purchase on regular basis, such as cleaning supplies, vitamins etc are often much cheaper in local store and are less likely to be knock offs. ~~~ Someone1234 If you don't mind waiting longer and have Prime, they often offer a "refund" credit. I currently have $5 in digital credits for items I didn't mind waiting a week for on Prime. Only downside is that the incentive rotates and some of them are simply terrible (prime pantry, women's fashion, and home services for example). ~~~ aidenn0 a lot of incentives are terrible, and you can't use two of them on the same order. If I could delay 2 or 3 orders and then get a free digital movie by stacking the credits, I'd do it a lot more often. ~~~ banderman For digital movies/music the credits do stack. ------ AlexB138 From many conversations, and my personal experience, the reliability of prime for two day deliveries has gone way down. It's generally a day or two before the item even ships in my region. Amazon is also failing to handle rampant knock-offs mixed in with legitimate products. It seems pretty brazen to increase the cost of Prime in light of those issues, even if it is only the monthly subscription. I'm sure it won't actually hurt them since they have such a strange-hold on online retail, and even with these issues they do still offer the best service by far, but it really seems like Amazon needs some competition. ~~~ lutorm In Hawaii, Prime isn't two day, it's "free shipping within sorta 5-7 business days, for most of the stuff marked Prime". And even that has gotten unreliable. When there's a range of delivery dates specified, it often seems designed to show up on the very last day of that range. A significant fraction of the time they haven't even shipped the thing by the first day of the delivery estimate. There are also an increasing amount of items that say they are Prime but when you try to buy them, it says "it can't be shipped to your address". Sometimes it's understandable, like things that are very heavy or hazardous, like Li-ion batteries. Other times it's completely incomprehensible, like 1/8" pipe fittings. And Amazon customer service can't give any info, they just say "sorry, we're not going to be able to send you that thing." ~~~ underbluewaters I couldn't get them to send me an xbox controller in Hawaii. It's just infuriating. They could at least have the decency to let you filter items you can't get. The mismatch between their listed terms and what you actually get as a Prime customer in Hawaii is borderline fraudulent. I'm considering putting together and sharing a script that could check your order history and delivery dates. They tend to give a free month of credit for late deliveries, but if I could show them "Well out of 12 months I've had late deliveries every month this year" I should just get the service for free. ~~~ matchbok You cannot expect a company to cater to such a small population. You choose to live there, you choose the consequences. ~~~ underbluewaters I can absolutely expect them to honor the terms that they themselves defined for a service that costs more than $100/year. ~~~ EpicEng The terms state Free 2-day shipping to the contiguous US. It states 5 day shipping to Hawaii and Alaska [https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201118050) I suppose it could be more clear, but I do not see where they guarantee 2-day to Hawaii. You live on an island in the middle of the ocean, expect shipping delays. ~~~ underbluewaters They advertise 3-7 business days. For the past 3 months it's been more like ~8-11 business days. Nobody here has unrealistic expectations. USPS would be much faster if they just dropped it in the mail within a couple days. It would also cost less than fedex overnighting items after waiting 2 weeks. ~~~ lutorm Indeed. It's gotten to the point that if I want something fast, I'll actually _avoid_ Amazon and instead find some merchant who will ship the item USPS Priority Mail which is very reasonably priced and reliably arrives in 3 days. The biggest problem are merchants that for some reason insist that they can _only_ use UPS/Fedex, which is a complete ripoff to Hawaii. I don't understand how they get any business for their "ground" service here, given that it's usually about the same price as 2-day air but takes a week. ------ ThrowawayIP I cancelled my Amazon Prime membership about a year ago and haven't looked back. I end up spending less money per month on things that I really don't need and my house is no longer filled with endless cardboard boxes. ~~~ praneshp > my house is no longer filled with endless cardboard boxes. You can throw in in the trash, you know :) Cancelling Prime is probably good for the same reason I shouldn't have gotten a Moviepass. I now have one less thing blocking me from watching a mediocre movie. ~~~ michaelper22 Trees were killed to make those boxes in the first place (do they have 100% recycled boxes yet?). Better to not order than to dump or even recycle the boxes. ~~~ megaman22 Trees grow back faster than you might think. Especially the species and grades that go into papermaking. Nobody is cutting down old-growth forest and putting it into pulp. Unless they are a complete idiot - there's no money in it; it's been a while since I was doing my father's logging invoices, but his margins on spruce and fir or hardwood pulp were razor thin, after accounting to stumpage to the landowner and operating expenses. It was largely a way to get rid of the stuff that needed to be cut, but that he couldn't convince anyone to scale out for veneer or saw logs. A huge part of the pulpwood was also blowdowns, storm damage, and disease or insect culls. ------ wbond Walmart, Jet.com and Target offer free 2 day shipping if you order $35, $35, or $25 respectively. It so happens in my area, all three use Fedex ground, which tends to be more reliable than UPS. Additionally, most items that cost less than $6-8 each tend to be significantly cheaper at Walmart or Target, or you can by a single item rather than a 3-pack, which is a common Amazon strategy. If you buy a decent number of higher price items, Amazon tends to have a price advantage, so the $99-per-year Prime subscription is worth it. However, you will throw a bunch of money away if you are buying a handful of small-ticket items from Amazon on a regular basis. ~~~ Shank The biggest thing is probably convenience. Even Amazon regularly reminds me of this, by saying I saved > 50 trips to the store for 1-off items that I've ordered on Prime. From shipping speed to not having to go blunder around a store looking for an item, Prime makes sense. It makes even more sense if you comparison shop. With Amazon, you can pick the _exact right item_, whereas a big box store like Walmart or Target will only stock a few options at best, 0 at worst. I was looking for a specific light bulb at Home Depot the other day. Didn't find it. Went to Lowe's. Didn't find it. Ordered the exact item from Amazon while walking out of Lowe's. I only went to stores for the time convenience (I obviously needed it urgently), but they failed for lack of stock. That's what Amazon offers to me -- instant availability of a huge range of items, and ridiculously fast shipping on the smallest of those items. ~~~ vageli > It makes even more sense if you comparison shop. With Amazon, you can pick > the _exact right item_, whereas a big box store like Walmart or Target will > only stock a few options at best, 0 at worst. I was looking for a specific > light bulb at Home Depot the other day. Didn't find it. Went to Lowe's. > Didn't find it. Ordered the exact item from Amazon while walking out of > Lowe's. I only went to stores for the time convenience (I obviously needed > it urgently), but they failed for lack of stock. That's what Amazon offers > to me -- instant availability of a huge range of items, and ridiculously > fast shipping on the smallest of those items. Why didn't you go to lowes.com or walmart.com? This isn't an apples to apples comparison. ~~~ dawnerd And why not check the lowes/homedepot sites before bothering to go into the store? They both have pretty good stock indicators and they'll tell you exactly where the item is. ------ ibdf It's still worth it. The amount of money saved with shipping, and the comfort of last "minute" shopping is priceless. Plus you get a few extra things like storage, movies, and music. This past week I paid $12 for ground shipping at another site and was reminded about how much shipping added to the price of the product. Update: Also forgot about the convenience of using Amazon lockers. ~~~ Angostura For me, it's cheaper to simply pay for the quick shipping when I really need it ~~~ gms7777 For me as a chronic overthinker, having the cost of shipping paid up front definitely decreases decision fatigue and saves me time. If I want something, I don't end up thinking about whether I really want the item quickly, or if I should add another item to get to the free shipping minimum, or if I should just go to the store instead of ordering online. Having it paid up front then is completely worth it for me, even if it were slightly more than I'd pay for shipping otherwise. ~~~ vageli > If I want something, I don't end up thinking about whether I really want the > item quickly, or if I should add another item to get to the free shipping > minimum, or if I should just go to the store instead of ordering online. > Having it paid up front then is completely worth it for me, even if it were > slightly more than I'd pay for shipping otherwise. Your conclusion to me is an odd one; maybe you wouldn't have ended up making those purchases were you forced to give them more thought which would save you _more_ in the long term. ------ ProfessorLayton While I’m not sure I get $156/year worth of value from Prime, or even $99, I share my account with 2 other close family members, and together we place enough orders for it to be worth it. Same with Costco etc. — so as long as These services remain easy to share, the price increases are aren’t too bad. ~~~ skinnymuch I think the new way is to only allow two other people in your household. So for people who cancelled and rebought Prime or got Prime in the last few years, they don’t get your perk. I too am lucky to be grandfathered in. But can’t really say it is a current Prime benefit anymore. ------ donarb Except, nothing new if you pay yearly, still $99 a year. ~~~ skinnymuch I’m betting when they added monthly prices their plan all along was to push people to pay yearly as it’s cheaper. But the price difference must’ve not been enough. Now it is pretty significant so it’ll probably do the job they originally wanted from it. Obviously that’s not the only reason for them adding monthly. Just one reason in my opinion. ------ fooey I wish Amazon Prime would break itself up into packages instead of raising their rates every 6 months as they throw more and more crap under the umbrella It annoys me greatly that I'm subsidizing Prime Video when I have zero interest in using it ~~~ skinnymuch Can you afford to pay yearly? Seems like they are trying to get people to pay yearly. They have really only raised that price once 3 or so years ago (otherwise they did a $5 increase). ------ roma1n Recently Amazon upped its minimum order for Prime Now (2 hr delivery) -- used to be 20 euros, now it's 40. I cancelled my subscription because of that, but the customer service was courteous and refunded the unused months fairly quickly. ------ ryanianian Many people in this and other recent threads talking about counterfeit items...please be aggressive about reporting these to customer service! It's only happened to me once, and customer service just refunded the ~$50 purchase without even asking me to send it back. A few days later I saw the seller was no longer on Amazon, so I suspect this is something Amazon is starting to take more seriously. Amazon really needs to do a better job of clearly showing which products are sold by third-parties and how well-vetted those third-parties actually are. I've not seen anyone say that a "Sold by Amazon" product is counterfeit. This said... I've come to rely less and less on Prime for actually meeting its 2-day promises. Most of the time I don't care when it shows up, but when I _do_ care, I've lost all faith that Amazon will actually pull through so I end up just buying locally. If volume is the issue, they really could incentivize the "no rush" shipping more than the hokey $5 credit things. ~~~ jlardinois > I've not seen anyone say that a "Sold by Amazon" product is counterfeit. I've had it happen to me with Levi's, and word of mouth tells me this is a problem in general with big name clothing. ~~~ skinnymuch How obvious was the counterfeit? I’m worried That I’m oblivious enough to not notice something is counterfeit and just think the product is bad quality. ~~~ jlardinois I was certainly fooled the first one or two times it happened; my initial thought was that Levi's provided the worst of its production to Amazon. The jeans were cut and sewn poorly, covered in sawdust, and fell apart within months. It's only upon doing further research that I realized they were counterfeit, and that many people have had this problem. ------ tvanantwerp Especially now that Amazon owns Whole Foods, the vast majority of my disposable income is theirs. It would be very difficult for them to make Prime no longer worthwhile for me. ~~~ TearsInTheRain That doesn't at all scare you? Is there anything that they could be doing with your data or money that would make you think twice about using prime? ~~~ dsacco _> Is there anything that they could be doing with your data or money that would make you think twice about using prime?_ Realistically speaking, probably not, no. ~~~ bcaulfield +1 for straight up honesty. I'm the same way, wish I were more on top of stuff like this, but don't have time. ------ pascalxus Thanks for the heads up! They just passed my value threshold and I'm making sure to set my auto-reknew to off. I have plenty of patience to wait a week for packages. ------ antirez Never understood why prime is so cheap in Europe. In Italy is 20 euros, and was 10 a few years ago. Sure, prime video here has a very weak offer, but still free shipment for 20/year is a good deal. ~~~ jrowley Probably greater density -> cheaper shipping. Also they probably are working to lock people in initially with low prices and hike prices overtime once they are dependent (monthly scheduled shipments, etc) ~~~ antirez Yep locking was my best guess... ~~~ nashashmi The comfort you never needed. ------ georgeecollins Until I read this article I didn't even realize I could get Prime monthly. Back in the day when it started it was a one time fee, $70? I paid it, and Amazon has been charging me since then. Like all subscription services, you are supposed to deiced once and forget about it. I worry about the concentration of power in the hands of Amazon. But I love my Kindle and I love Prime. ~~~ Shank > Until I read this article I didn't even realize I could get Prime monthly. It's relatively new, only added in April, 2016: [https://www.wired.com/2016/04/amazon-prime-now-available- mon...](https://www.wired.com/2016/04/amazon-prime-now-available-month- without-shipping/) ------ jinfiesto I pay for Prime yearly, so this does not affect me. However, in the last couple years, the quality of service has decreased dramatically. When Prime first rolled out, it used to be that I'd receive my packages on day 2 like clockwork. These days, I'm lucky if I receive packages in 4 or 5 days. Additionally, with inventory co-mingling, Amazon has become a dumping ground for counterfeit and damaged products. I've wasted so much time this past year sending stuff back (sometimes repeatedly) because I've received something that was damaged (usually not during shipping) or clearly fraudulent. The upside of course, is that Amazon's customer service remains top notch and any issues that I have are ultimately resolved to my "satisfaction." It'd be nice if I didn't have to spend so much time in chats with Amazon customer service. ~~~ owlninja Opposite here, I'm receiving most packages same day (evening) at this point. ------ wkearney99 I'm fortunate to live close to one of their distribution centers. I regularly get things same or next day. When I use other resellers online it takes upwards of a week to get things. For the few situations where they're less than amazon, their shipping fees and shipping times lose the sale. Fedex seems to go out of their way to sit on packages. UPS, on the other hand, seems to go to extra lengths to get packages through their system as quickly as possible, regardless of shipping type. As in, things ordered UPS Ground regularly get here in 2 days. Fedex, though, when they say a week, it'll damned well be 7 days. ------ kregasaurusrex I've wondered why Amazon Prime charges tax in my state for what's essentially a yearly membership club fee. My guess is that since it's bundled with streaming services etc it counts as being entertainment even though I don't use those features. ~~~ skinnymuch That would be my guess too. And that is pretty lame for the, I’m guessing, majority of subscribers who don’t use their other features. ------ exabrial I rarely get two-day deliveries anymore, with the fee increase, I'm likely to terminate the service :/ I only ship about one item per month on Amazon, not worth the $13/mo ------ KerrickStaley Is Prime still worth it? Many items on Amazon Prime are more expensive than buying at local retailers, and competitors like Walmart, Costco, and Jet (now part of Walmart) offer cheap, fast shipping, often with lower prices. I'm planning on cancelling my Prime subscription when it goes up for renewal since I rarely use it (it would actually be cheaper to pay for 2-day shipping every time). ~~~ nunez Same-day arrival is a godsend for me, which is why I keep paying for it. I don't care about their Music or Video options, though it's handy to have with Echos around the apartment. ------ tptacek It’s still the best deal in all of retail ecommerce. ~~~ yorby Walmart.com has free two-day shipping on orders of $35 or more and there is no subscription fees. ~~~ HeyLaughingBoy Walmart doesn't include Video & Music streaming. Amazon video alone is worth it for me. ------ mnarayan01 [Obsolete; new HN title is fine] ~~~ mulmen That’s exactly what the title says. ~~~ quicklyfrozen The actual article title starts with 'Your'. ------ cranjice I've stopped shopping at amazon, but the prime subscription I expected to expire annoyingly auto-renewed itself. There seems to be an (intentional?) lack of prime account management features. The only user facing options seem to be "cancel now" or "email me right before auto-renewal". I don't see a way to simply turn off automatic renewal. On the other hand I think prime was a useful influence on other e-commence sites. Shipping times have become dramatically shorter in recent years. So, thank you Amazon for forcing your competition to ship faster while allowing your own site to become overrun with fake reviews and crappy knock- off products!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What Working at Stripe Has Been Like - troydavis https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/3/18/two-years-at-stripe/ ====== spudlyo I left Stripe a little over 6 months ago to join an exciting startup with a number of my friends. What I miss most about working there is the culture of shipping. There are a number of 'shipped' email lists at Stripe where people can tout their accomplishments large and small. These lists are widely read and commented on, and folks put in a fair amount of effort making their "shipped" emails informative and entertaining. That feeling you get when you finish a challenging project, write a great shipped email, and get a bunch of feedback from folks throughout the company is pretty amazing. Once I was invited to convert one of my shipped emails into a presentation for a company all-hands meeting. I had a less than a week to get it done, which was pretty hectic, but in the end it turned out great and it was perhaps my favorite memory of my time at Stripe. I enjoy my current job, and those little dopamine hits I get from checking things off my list as well as the bigger ones from finishing projects, but now only my boss and some teammates notice when I finish something. One thing I learned about myself, is that I really do care about what other people think about my work. ~~~ cyberferret If Stripe's HR department is reading this thread, I think they can pinpoint one crucial interview question that will determine culture fit in their organisation for future hiring - and that is "do you like talking about your accomplishments with the rest of your team?". Seems to be a very polarising thing to be asked to do, judging by the replies on this particular comment. EDIT: Curious about the downvotes? This is a real thing. I am sure they don't want to hire people that would hate to write shipped emails and publish them to the list if they actively hated writing them. It is simply not good culture fit, and I am sure they would want to identify that early on in the recruitment process. ~~~ andrewingram Possibly that such a recruitment filter would exclude a lot of people with depression or anxiety-related mental illness. To clarify, I _hate_ talking about my accomplishments, it makes me feel deeply anxious and uncomfortable, and will say as much if asked. But I’ll also do it if that’s what’s required of me. ~~~ ascar And there are many companies that value humbleness. I love sharing my accomplishments. I know what's socially expected from me, but not sharing feels really bad to me. It feels as all the work I've done and that cool accomplishment don't matter at all. Therefore I mostly share with friends, though most of them lack the necessary tech-knowledge to really understand it. I also love hearing about others accomplishments in an easy to digest way. These shipped emails seem like great way to spread knowledge and a positive attitude of getting stuff done. What I, and the comment you replied to want to say, everyone is different. Let me work at a company that encourages sharing accomplishments and go work for one that values humbleness. But at least please don't take it away from me, just because you don't like it, especially if it's optional. ~~~ andrewingram To clarify, I’m not criticising the idea of sharing accomplishments. I’m referring to having to _like_ doing it being a criteria for recruitment. I was proposing a possible reason as to why the comment I was replying to was receiving downvotes. ------ gringoDan Reading this post made me think that while many companies advertise an entrepreneurial environment and the ability to do impactful work, the true test of this culture is 1) the ability to hire former founders and 2) those former founders loving their work. Plenty of blue-chip startups have future founders working for them...yet it seems to me that having past founders is much more rare. An incredibly strong company endorsement. ~~~ ztratar As a former founder who now works at Stripe... I am glad to see we are now explicitly mentioning the aspects of Stripe culture that make it founder friendly. \- Huge transparency \- Management optimizes for autonomy & distributed decision-making \- Upwards review processes > downwards decision-making \- Level obfuscation \- Shipping culture \- People who are of the quality you'd normally only find by hiring them yourself (and frequently better) My 3rd week at Stripe (around 7 months ago) Patrick just sat down next to me at lunch, knew my name, and started talking about what my team was working on in great detail. Asked me many direct, important questions and really listened. As a former CEO of a VC-backed company, I knew he was 100% on his game -- and around you at work you can see that pretty much everyone trusts the execs to be insanely competent, because they are. My only wish is that they don't take as many solo plane rides, haha. :) ~~~ agf Can you expand on level obfuscation? ~~~ bernatfp I think he means role titles don't include seniority level ~~~ agf Yeah, but what does that have to do with being founder friendly? ------ xrd The most fascinating part of this article is the idea that Stripe is spending time thinking about unlocking potential in Internet businesses in Japan. A tough nut to crack. The revolution is happening in all these countries, but if Stripe can move the needle in Brazil and Japan and other places where entrepreneurship currently requires more grease/graft, that'll really be interesting. ~~~ alexcnwy I’m in Tokyo right now for work (my startup NumberBoost won an innovation competition with NTT Japan) and it’s so wild how simultaneously forward and backward things are here. On the one hand, there are so many things they do here that make me feel like they’re in the future. On the other hand, every fifth person has a flip phone, the WiFi sucks, you can’t buy a travel SIM card at the mall, and there are CD/DVD stores everywhere. I can’t help but feel part of their problem is how unwilling most local Japanese people I’ve met here are to break the rules. ~~~ alexcnwy For example good luck getting mayonnaise with your fries at any of the fast food chains here. They have mayonnaise and they put it on burgers but they “CANNOT” give (or sell) it to you in a separate container for your fries. ~~~ mistrial9 mayonnaise has special properties regarding food spoilage, it can be legitimately poisonous when it turns bad.. which in food services, is a constant. ~~~ culturestate This isn’t the reason you can’t get mayo with fries in Japan, though. It’s a cultural barrier against deviating from the “rules,” no matter how small. Mayo isn’t on the menu as a condiment; sorry! Example: I once had to fill out a form (as a designated corporate representative) authorizing myself to access our racks in an NTT data center and then fax it to the DC manager (who I knew personally) before he would let me in. _During this entire process we were standing in the same room._ It used to annoy me when I first moved to Tokyo, but you eventually learn to live with it. ------ blizkreeg Patrick, I love Stripe's offering, but I have to pull teeth within my startup to justify _why we use Stripe_ to non-technical people. In fact, when I put on my Product person's hat, I can see everything they tell me clearly. Stripe just does not look or function like a credit card processor. It is nearly impossible for non-engineer folk to grasp - to the point of it not being a viable platform. The almost hermit-like reporting interfaces (the best that can be done is a bunch of paginated tables??), the lack of visibility into how charges break down at an aggregate level (how much do we pay Stripe in fees has to be pulled from a _shudder_ export of all transactions), handling of disputes, no ability to generate monthly statements (for Connect accounts), no direct line access to an account manager etc etc - the list goes on unfortunately. I love the simplicity, but I can tell you that Stripe is lagging far behind in functionality and ease of platform use for SMB and enterprise SaaS companies (specifically, in our case, a platform/service provider that runs payments for a bunch of small businesses). We're small, but not tiny, and growing - so the noise around the problems we face just keeps amplifying by the day. The moment we crossed a dozen customers and 100-200K in monthly processing, it’s as if Stripe just stopped working for us. Stripe's clearly an extraordinary engineering-driven company, but solving for real business use-cases is key. From the outside, it feels like Stripe is solving all the back-end problems and optimizing it, but doing nothing about the _front-end_ , metaphorically speaking. I'm now having to get on calls with old-school card processing providers since Stripe just doesn't "scale" for us from a business use-case perspective. It's too catered to the devs. Hope this falls on the right ear. I'm happy to chat more and provide my 2c of feedback if someone wants to listen. ~~~ countryqt30 I 100% agree with this. Stripe is fun for startups with <100'000 / year revenue, but then it gets ugly. The reporting can't be configured at all and is highly cumbersome, especially if you need something slightly different than they offer for comparability (e.g. last 7 days, last 28 vs last 30 days), and Stripe is not transparent about their fees at all in the back-end. ~~~ icelancer I'll add my 2c and say I disagree entirely. We ship mid-seven figures through Stripe yearly and I enjoy the back-end still to this day - have been using it right after it was /dev/payments and still kicking all these years on my main small business and small projects alike. I don't see the need for "reporting" from the Stripe website as I think most businesses should be doing it on their own in their own tooling, but in the cases I want to quickly look things up, Stripe's back-end has been just fine as well. ~~~ LIV2 And what is the business case and cost for "we should develop software to fill in the missing features of payment provider x instead of simply going with y"? ------ afarrell > One of the things I enjoy most about Stripe’s work culture is the notion > that “nothing is Not My Job.” I’m very eager to know: If you want to be > successful in such a culture, what mental habits/skills can you develop > which let you know with confidence where to direct your attention? How did patio11 develop these? ——— EDIT: How do you know that what you are working on is not a distraction? ~~~ chapium If everything is your job, how can you be measured by what _is_ your job fairly? ~~~ rarecoil I don't think that's the point of the statement. Facebook culture makes a similar statement: "Nothing at Facebook is someone else's problem." I don't take it to mean that you are supposed to be the Atlas of the organization, but rather that when you see problems and issues that might arise, you don't ignore them because it's "not my job" or "not my problem" \- you embrace it, escalate or forward it to the correct people, and then go back to what else you have to do. This type of thinking stops issues from being buried when they're noticed by someone, even if it's something outside of what they _are_ judged on in their responsibilities (and performance reviews). A good hypothetical example of this is a crash condition you may trigger as an engineer. You might not quite know what is going on but you have a reproducible testcase of a crash condition in someone else's stack, and saying it's not your job means the bug doesn't get fixed or reported. Had you submitted that crash condition and made it temporarily your problem, you could have indirectly helped patch a deserialization bug that could've led to code execution on that tier with a more malicious testcase (i.e. exploit). In smaller companies, I think everything technical kind of ends up being your job, so your job becomes what you make of it at that moment. Do what needs to be done to ship the thing. ~~~ jklinger410 >I don't take it to mean that you are supposed to be the Atlas of the organization, but rather that when you see problems and issues that might arise, you don't ignore them because it's "not my job" or "not my problem" \- you embrace it, escalate or forward it to the correct people, and then go back to what else you have to do. Trying to really educate around this at my workplace. I call it "throwing your hands up." If you run into a problem, or notice that something isn't working, what-have-you, if you throw your hands up instead of working to fix it, or find the person who should fix it, you are on my shit list. It's hard to explain this part of ownership. But it's very obvious when you see someone doing it. Their first response is often to say something like "not my job," and they often think that Extreme Ownership or Question Behind the Question mentality covers it, but after it all shakes out in the wash, it's actually the opposite. Maybe people need to do a better job of explaining ownership up front, or choose different words. IDK ~~~ afarrell > on my shit list What would you tell a junior engineer who feels so overwhelmed with the tasks he is supposed to be focused on that he decides not to switch task to solving this other thing that may-or-may-not be a real problem? Also, are the phrases “Extreme Ownership” and “Question Behind the Question” from a US Navy SEAL book by Willink and Babin? Would you generally recommend that book? ~~~ matwood I’ll second the Jocko book recommendation. His podcast is also good. Pick out the QA episodes if you want mostly leadership questions. ------ Uhhrrr > I also wrote a non-trivial amount of code because, fun fact, stripe.com > spells CMS e-r-b, which didn’t optimize for writers’ ability to ship new > words Could someone explain the "CMS e-r-b" joke to me? ~~~ karanke Their CMS ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_management_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_management_system)) is a set of flat ERB ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERuby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERuby)) files, no WordPress etc. ------ cyberferret > _The parts of the job which I enjoyed the most were not my actual job > (writing and selling software, filing taxes in a timely fashion, etc) but > helping other software entrepreneurs optimize their businesses or engineers > navigate career challenges._ This bit in the post about the author having previously been a founder of a business intrigued me. As a founder myself, I know that there are bits of the business that don't fit into my natural skillset but _have_ to be done. That is accepted as part and parcel of running a business. The second point intrigues me though. In my decades of running my own software business, I have had a _lot_ of staff come through as employees, get skilled up, then leave to start their own businesses using the skills they learned while at my company. This actually gives me a great deal of pleasure and pride. I LOVE seeing people's career pathways take off, and I love it more if I had contributed in some way. ------ pololee I was in a small company working on payments team as fullstack engineer. Given the big volume, stripe would be too expensive for us. So we built our own credit card processing service. We integrated with FirstData directly. While I was working on payments, I kept following news about stripe. I love their design and appreciate the deep care they put in their product, even the documentation. I like Patrick and John's inspiring stories and love watching their interviews. After 3 years, I was looking for a new opportunity. Stripe is my dream company. I was lucky to get a phone interview. The conversation went fine. The coding problem was easy. But I could tell the interviewer was not impressed. I couldn't figure out what and why. I was depressed when I got the rejection email. I'll definitely want to try again. Anyone advice or suggestions Stripe folks could offer would be greatly appreciated! ~~~ yitchelle Did they give a plausible reason for their rejection? I am just interested if the trend for job rejection reasons is moving towards a more transparent model. In the past and present, it is extremely difficult/frustrating to get the real answers for being rejected. ~~~ pololee They didn't give me any specific reasons. The recruiter called me one day after my video interview. She only told me they didn't think I was a good fit. In the interview, I finished the coding questions in 30 mins. Then I just had a chat with the interviewer. The conversation went fine. He told me he was full-stack eng and worked on frontend. I asked him whether he worked with Benjamin De Cock, a stripe designer I admire and if he could share some stories. He said yes but didn't want to share stories. ------ benatkin I like the remote coffee at the end. I'm remote and I want it to feel more like I'm having coffee when I'm talking to people I work with. Any suggestions on how to make remote conversations more like getting a cup of coffee? ~~~ martin_ At Twilio we use Donut. The TLDR is with our configuration every third Monday members of a slack channel (#soc-donut in our case) get randomly paired via DM. I've met people from offices around the world which I wouldn't have done otherwise, which has definitely been of personal and professional benefit to me [0] [https://www.donut.com/](https://www.donut.com/) ------ bgentry @patio11 could you elaborate on the internal communications structure at Stripe? I’m curious how employees these days balance the use of different communication tools, especially as Stripe has grown and begun embracing distributed work. I heard [0] for a long time it was all about long form posts to a massive number of Google Groups mailing lists with custom tooling to manage subscriptions (bc the Groups UI is poor). I understand these lists range from general to hyper specific. But then I’ve also heard much of the communication has shifted to Slack or other tools. Slack tends to degrade into chaos at a certain size, and at Stripe’s scale I’m curious if this is a big pain point or how you mitigate it. [https://stripe.com/blog/scaling-email- transparency](https://stripe.com/blog/scaling-email-transparency) ~~~ rattray I am not patio11, but I do work at Stripe. Both are true; we use a lot of email, typically with lists, and a lot of Slack. Other tools, like a wiki, an issue tracker, Home[0], and a culture of "run" rotations (like on-call but for helping folks on other teams) help keep chaos manageable. It might be interesting for us to write up another update on this, since many folks are curious... [0] [https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-home](https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-home) ------ OliverJones As a Stripe customer processing about USD600K a year through them, I have to say they're an excellent outfit. Their documentation is very clear. Their email and irc support is smart and responsive, with nary a "I can help you with that today" script recited by an agent to waste my time. They set and meet expectations about the financial stuff, like how long it takes for transactions to hit the bank, and what happens with disputes and chargebacks and other parts of the world of serving real paying people. It's not hard to guess that the things in this article are all true. ~~~ icelancer I like a lot of things about Stripe but this is by far the best part: > Their documentation is very clear. In a world where no one gives a shit about cleanly documenting processes - especially ones that are versioned or change - I really appreciate Stripe's dedication to this. ------ js2 > (An example which is just a boggling fact about the world: what’s your > finger-to-a-wind guesstimate about what percentage of credit card payments > fail with error code I Don’t Know Sometimes Things Fail In Credit Card Land? > Hint: it’s higher than you think. Those failed payments cost conversions at > the margin. When Stripe fights that number down by a basis point, that > creates value across our entire portfolio, forever.) I have no idea what the percentage is but I recently had a decline I think may have been from Stripe itself. A few months back I’d dropped my car off at the shop and tried to Lyft home. I’m a very infrequent Lyft/Uber user. Lyft refused to accept my payment. Tried with two different cards (Chase, AmEx) both directly, via Apple Pay and via PayPal. Couldn’t hail a car. So then I try with Uber. Same thing! Payment rejected, no car for you. I wrote to both Lyft and Uber customer support. Never heard back from Uber. Lyft claimed my card was denied (“It appears that the card is not working due to a decline from your bank. Because the information we receive about bank declines is very limited, you’ll need to reach out to your bank directly for more information as to why the transaction was denied.”) I contact both my card companies - they tell me there are no blocks on my card nor anything that would cause the payment to be rejected. The only thing I could find Lyft/Uber had in common was they both used Stripe. (But that doesn’t explain not being able to pay via Apple Pay/PayPal unless those somehow route through Stripe.) Never did figure out what it was (“Jay, I had checked and verified that the last four of the card that you have provided is already added on this account. There shouldn't be any issues in requesting for a ride. If you had any issues with your Lyft request. Please kindly send a screen shot so that we will be able to see and rectify the issue.”) and haven’t had cause to use Lyft/Uber since. This incident is the only time I can recall payments being rejected like that. I think Chase once temporarily blocked an Internet payment, sent me a notification immediately, I indicated the charge was legitimate, tried again and it went through. Oh well. (I ended up getting a ride home in the shop’s customer service van.) ~~~ ikeboy I'd guess half a percent? Can't imagine it being much higher? ~~~ epa Bank declines are 10-20% of total card volume, depending on industry. ~~~ ikeboy Most of those are going to be straightforward insufficient funds or fraud though, I'd assume? ~~~ penagwin Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with these specific numbers. Anecdotally I've had my own cards denied because I've reported my card missing and had to get new numbers. This is fairly common from what I've seen, many people I know have had issues because of this (late fees, etc.). Just another case I thought I'd add, as we sufficient funds and it wasn't fraud. ~~~ ikeboy If you report your card missing then it's no longer a valid number. ~~~ js2 Except for recurring payments, at least with AmEx. ------ onion2k This is a great post. I already thought highly of Stripe, but knowing a little more about the way people work there makes me all the more impressed. ------ chair6 For more insight re. Stripe, [https://fs.blog/2018/05/patrick- collison/](https://fs.blog/2018/05/patrick-collison/) was an excellent Knowledge Project episode talking to CEO & co-founder Patrick Collison. ~~~ misiti3780 i just discovered the knowledge project this weekend, seems pretty awesome. ------ aboutruby > It also felt like it was constraining the absolute amount of impact I had > for the world. It's refreshing to see people thinking like this. Maximizing impact is undervalued. For instance a lot of companies restrict themselves to one country thus dramatically reducing the maximum impact. ~~~ blotter_paper Due to differences in regulation I would expect there to be instances where focusing on one country would have more of an impact than spreading your resources over multiple jurisdictions. I would even guess that this is true for most companies below a certain scale. Reduction/standardisation of regulation should reduce the value of scale for which this is true, though other factors such as geography would still play a role. ------ dandigangi This was such a good read. I am going to try that Remote Coffee tomorrow. ------ fyfy18 After reading all of that and thinking "Stripe sounds like a really cool place to work", I'm a bit disappointed that they don't have an office in my country and "remote" means "remote in North America". Oh well, I'll keep working with them to build cool stuff for my clients :-) ~~~ sieabahlpark They probably have laws restricting access to their credit card says. Possibly hiring or contractual with Enterprise ------ fulafel For anyone else wondering what Stripe Atlas is, > Stripe Atlas, a seamless way to start your company in the U.S. Apparently it's a filing-paperwork-etc-as-a-service ------ mychael File this blog post under "Humble Brag" ------ devmunchies Are there a lot of remote workers at Stripe or is Patrick an exception to the rule? ~~~ patio11 There are many (tens of percent of engineering, etc); we are taking steps to materially increase the number. ~~~ retromario I checked out the list of remote engineering jobs after reading your (fascinating) article but unfortunately they all seem to be restricted to North America. Is this a time zone issue or a legal issue? Are there plans to expand remote jobs to other regions (like Europe)? ~~~ patio11 As time goes to infinity we plan on having Stripes building products very close to as many of our customers as possible, which is (much) more widely distributed than the status quo, which is (much) more widely distributed than open recs on any given Monday. There will be more on this subject coming later. ~~~ aboutruby I'm not sure what open recs means in this context: \- open requirements \- open recommendations \- open requisites \- open offers I'm not really expecting an answer so I asked on stackexchange: [https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/490404/what- does...](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/490404/what-does-open- recs-means) ~~~ patio11 It's industry jargon for "each allocation for a single person which appears on a planned set of hires." ~~~ aboutruby Thanks a lot! ------ triangleman So, are you ever going to open source stockfighter? ------ dvduval Definitely not my favorite credit card processor. For starters, I will not earn any money if I refer my customers to stripe. It's already a non-starter at that point. ~~~ ztratar I'm a Stripe employee & would like to know more about your POV here. What other processors pay you for referring your customers, and whom are your customers? Very curious. Since processing is a low-margin business, it's really rare to see referral bonuses, especially the type you're describing. If we do have room to open up a program like this, I could mention it internally. ------ ghostbrainalpha This may seem petty but as a former designer, Stripes logo not really having a stripe in it has always really bothered me. Like... how could they not try harder to make that a focus of their branding? ~~~ travisjungroth Amazon doesn't have a river in their logo. ~~~ lstamour Well actually... [https://www.freelogodesign.org/blog/2018/09/10/the-amazon- lo...](https://www.freelogodesign.org/blog/2018/09/10/the-amazon-logo-story) ~~~ benatkin That has an interesting error in it: "This is a good example of why it is import to have a logo that is versatile." I wonder if the author was considering using the phrase "of import" [1] and decided to be less clever. 1: [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/import](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/import) third definition, _import noun (IMPORTANCE)_	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
LLVM-based JIT Compiler for Ruby - claudiug https://github.com/k0kubun/llrb ====== pmontra The README states that there are no improvements for real world applications. What's missing to get there?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How do you document your work/progress/things you have learnt? - ahmedbaracat Hi, I am getting obsessed of finding a simple tool/app to let me easily document the work I have done each day, right notes about it, and document the things I have learnt. In essence, it is something like a daily journal, but I want to be able to categorize the different things (progress on iOS app, learning swift, learning design,...) and also be able to publish this data to the Internet for others to benefit from. For example, they get to see how I broke down a complex app to simple tasks that I tackled one a time, how I solved a specific problem, how/where I searched for the solution... Would also be helpful for clients to look at my process and my way of doing the work. Things I have looked at:<p>* Todoist, although great for task management, lacks the ability to publish to the internet, having comments on the tasks...<p>* Wordpress blog, Tumblr, Medium.com: lack an integration with a task management<p>I think I need something that combines task management with documentation/daily logging.<p>Thank you. ====== ahmedbaracat For others how might be interested in the same topic/question, here is a link to the same question on Reddit where a lot of useful information/tools/ideas was shared. [https://www.reddit.com/r/productivity/comments/47ct2k/how_do...](https://www.reddit.com/r/productivity/comments/47ct2k/how_do_you_document_your_workprogressthings_you/) ------ gjvc [http://tiddlywiki.com/](http://tiddlywiki.com/) ~~~ ahmedbaracat Thank you. Seems to check lots of boxes. Interesting to see what other tools have people built.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
UK Investigatory Powers Bill: Politicians exempt themselves from new laws - Liriel http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/investigatory-powers-bill-a7447781.html ====== rl3 Normally this would be a positive feature, since it (in theory) serves to protect politicians from being coerced or blackmailed. However, I can't help but think it's the same gutless people that voted this in simply protecting their own interests above all else. On the other hand, the protections may serve useful some day should they suddenly locate their spines—or perhaps a wave of vertebrate politicians somehow takes office. Either way, the protections would make it easier for the newly-granted surveillance powers to be revoked. Wishful thinking, of course. At least the UK doesn't waste time on charades like we do here in the US—serving up deprecated or redundant surveillance programs on the altar of political sacrifice while other, more compartmented programs (usually broader and more invasive in scope) seamlessly take their place. Then again, perhaps there's just not enough public opposition to justify the effort in the first place. ~~~ deutronium I'm not sure how it's a positive feature at all, why should they be treated differently from the rest of us. ~~~ dom0 I'm not sure why anyone would expect the agencies to actually adhere to these laws (they didn't before anyway). Having a nice bucket of kompromat on every relevant politician is rather enticing. ~~~ rl3 The ultimate justification for spying on politicians is under the guise of counterintelligence. Have to make sure they're not under the influence of foreign powers, or leaking classified information. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Harman#2009_wiretap.2FAIP...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Harman#2009_wiretap.2FAIPAC_allegations) Of course, sometimes it's just easier to poorly fabricate supposedly- intercepted communications, do the political damage, and then refuse to divulge any evidence citing either classification grounds or the absence of an investigation. ------ johngalt Before anyone looks down their nose at the UK. This is really common in the US as well. If the law is onerous, then there will be exceptions for the politically connected. If the law is helpful or permissive, then it will apply to the politically connected first. A good barometer for deciding if proposed legislation is helpful or harmful: figure out who the law applies to first and who it applies to last. ~~~ javiramos I am very curious about this phenomenon. Do you have any examples or references? ~~~ arca_vorago Insider trading not being illegal for congress comes to mind. Immunity from prosecution for revealing classified information on the house floor as well. Those are the two I always think of when pondering this subject. ~~~ jan888 But we don't even have insider trading laws. Insider trading is something the courts came up with based on an expanded meaning of fraud. ~~~ arca_vorago Wait, are you saying insider trading _laws_ are actually just extended use of fraud laws, but no laws specifically for insider trading? If so, I find that very interesting. ~~~ jan888 Yes. There is no law against insider trading, just the SEC and judges thinking it's really bad so we should punish it even if Congress never got around to passing an actual law against it. See here for one example [0]. The SEC does have rules against it, so it's not entirely on a case-by-case basis [1]. It's just the SEC isn't supposed to write law. [0] [https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-12-11/whats- nex...](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-12-11/whats-next-for- insider-trading-law) [1] [http://www.sec.gov/answers/insider.htm](http://www.sec.gov/answers/insider.htm) ~~~ fweespeech > See here for one example [0]. The SEC does have rules against it, so it's > not entirely on a case-by-case basis [1]. It's just the SEC isn't supposed > to write law. It isn't really. [https://www.sec.gov/news/testimony/2011/ts120111rsk.htm](https://www.sec.gov/news/testimony/2011/ts120111rsk.htm) > There is no express statutory definition of the offense of insider trading > in securities.3 The SEC prosecutes insider trading under the general > antifraud provisions of the Federal securities laws, most commonly Section > 10(b) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 (“Exchange Act”) and Rule > 10b-5, a broad anti-fraud rule promulgated by the SEC under Section 10(b). > Section 10(b) declares it unlawful “[t]o use or employ, in connection with > the purchase or sale of any security . . . any manipulative or deceptive > device or contrivance in contravention of such rules and regulations as the > Commission may prescribe as necessary or appropriate in the public interest > or for the protection of investors.”4 Rule 10b-5 broadly prohibits fraud and > deception in connection with the purchase and sale of securities. As the > Supreme Court has stated, “Section 10(b) and Rule 10b-5 prohibit all > fraudulent schemes in connection with the purchase or sale of securities, > whether the artifices employed involve a garden type variety of fraud, or > present a unique form of deception,” because “[n]ovel or atypical methods > should not provide immunity from the securities laws.”5 Congress wrote some very broad anti-fraud laws, never amended them, and left it up to the SEC to exercise its discretion on what qualified as such practices. ------ rebuilder When they say records are not able to be accessed without a warrant, do they mean that or do they mean it's illegal to access the records without a warrant? ~~~ rl3 That is an excellent question. The NSA developments in recent years have shown that while privacy protections do exist that limit access to collected data (e.g. FISA warrants), they're still collecting everything on everyone regardless. The intercepted data then rots in a huge database for years at a minimum—in practice probably indefinitely. In what was one of the the most brilliant legal/public relations plays in recent history, NSA decided to play a shell game with the definitions of the terms "collection" and "targeting", redefining them (when convenient) as the _accessing_ of data—by humans—that's already been intercepted and stored. ~~~ seanp2k2 With _accessing_ further defined as an actual human looking at it, not a computer parsing it or generating statistics over the collected data of individuals in aggregate. ~~~ rl3 Updated my comment to reflect that, thanks. A good example of the distinction is the raw audio of a domestic phone call in the US. First it's intercepted in bulk, then automatically sent to DSP hardware for transcription into a searchable text log. That wouldn't qualify as "collection" as the NSA defines it until a human analyst actually listened to or laid eyes upon the data. Automated analysis programs looking for keywords or specific patterns of behavior within the data probably require legal authorization as well. However, it's unclear if the legal authorizations such programs operate under are broad in nature, or issued individually in a more explicit manner. ------ mike-cardwell "Internet connection records – a history of every website that someone has visited, but not every page – will still be collected for MPs" So at least if a shifty employee feels like taking a look at the data, or leaks the data, or an ISP gets hacked, our MP's browsing history will be exposed too. ~~~ wlkr Unfortunately I don't think that the retention aspect will be revoked - no matter how much it's detested - but I do believe the only way that the government will tighten access is when a few people inevitably leak at best embarassing data on members of the political class. The lack of technological literacy amongst the populus and the utter contempt which the government has towards privacy and anonymity is very disheartening. ------ doc_holliday Slightly related question, does anyone know if these laws are backdated. I.e a year's worth of data retention is that available to the list of access from now? As in have ISP already been collecting? Has the data collection started? Is it about to start? ~~~ tonyedgecombe 'Has the data collection started?' I think we can assume it's been going on for years already. ------ Create _We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world. This should not actually be a complicated inquiry._ [https://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen- WhyFreedomOfThoughtRe...](https://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen- WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia) Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself. ------ ionised Seriously, bring out the guillotine. We are WAY overdue for a culling of the ruling class. ~~~ tonyedgecombe Revolutions are always followed by a new set of leaders, often worse than what was there before. ~~~ ionised Often, not always. I'm under no illusion that revolutions are bloodless, but I believe that sometimes they are the the only option when system becomes so corrupt and rigged in favour of a small, wealthy, ruling elite. The French Revolution for example which was grisly as all fuck and the years of instability afterwards can not be understated. Yet I do believe that what eventually came out of it (the French Republic) is far, far better than what came before the people started chopping the heads off the insane, greedy, oppressive aristrocracy. There are of course counter-examples. The Russian revolution. Though was the revolution itself the problem there, or the people that commandeered it for themselves in the years afterwards (e.g. Stalin)? I cannot see a way to fix the current system. The populace is so suppressed in ways that are sometimes subtle as fuck. Decades of demagogue politicians playing on fears, dividing the demographics into us-versus-them tribes out for blood, fostering the paranoia and fear of the foreigner, engaging in massive orgies of deregulation of financial services that cause crash after econimic crash, where the average schmuck picks up the bill and those reponsible get to carry on as normal. Repealing basic services like welfare and healthcare, fostering resentment between age groups, racial groups and classes as a misdirection of attention from the actual cause of our current ills, socially irresponsible banks and financial services that have no tangible value to society other than to move money around. Intelligence services and police forces focused on inward threats from their own people lest they somehow upset the status quo of funneling up the wealth of nations into the hands of a few oligarchs at the top of the pyramid. Western democracy is completely fucked. It has been corrupted and made a sick facsimile of what it was intended to be. There is no fixing this system without massive civil unrest, and that impending civil unrest is why (I believe) we are witnessing the insance lurch towards authoritarianism and watering down of basic rights all over Europe and the US, it's those with a lot to lose preparing themselves. And they are winning. They will continue to fuck us all as long as we keep falling for the whole 'terrorist', 'immigrants', 'paedophile', 'hackers' bullshit as a reason why they must keep taking away our rights and liberties. We are frogs slowly boiling alive in the cooking pot. ~~~ arethuza From a discussion of _1984_ : _" beginning with the historical observation that societies always have hierarchically divided themselves into social classes and castes: the High (who rule); the Middle (who work for, and yearn to supplant the High), and the Low (whose goal is quotidian survival). Cyclically, the Middle deposed the High, by enlisting the Low. Upon assuming power, however, the Middle (the new High class) recast the Low into their usual servitude. In the event, the classes perpetually repeat the cycle, when the Middle class speaks to the Low class of "justice" and of "human brotherhood" in aid of becoming the High class rulers."_ [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_and_Practice_of_Oli...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_and_Practice_of_Oligarchical_Collectivism) ~~~ eli_gottlieb People forget two things when they quote Orwell as evidence for perma- cynicism: 1) Orwell as himself a democratic socialist, writing on behalf of democratic socialism. 2) The level of stratification between high, middle, and low varies massively across time and place. _More_ egalitarian societies _have_ actually existed. ~~~ arethuza For what it's worth I probably have very similar political views to Orwell - my reaction wasn't "perma-cynicism" but deep skepticism that a violent revolution that calls for "culling" and capital punishment would actually make things any better for the average person - just replacing one ruling class with another. ~~~ eli_gottlieb Well, to go back to cynicism for a moment, I think it partially depends on whether the ruling class has the basic sanity to relinquish enough of their power nonviolently that life for the masses can return to a tolerable norm. The French Revolution did not merely happen because inequality was too severe, but because of the "let them eat cake" attitude on the part of the elite. The English, in contrast, were once-upon-a-time willing to reform their system to reduce inequality rather than suffer yet another civil war. ~~~ arethuza I'd have said that the best example of a reform in the UK system was the post- war Attlee government that introduced the NHS. However, that required a desire for change that was driven by the "total war" exertions of WW2. ------ secfirstmd Politicians making one rule for the plebs and one rule for themselves? Well I never! ~~~ ghostDancer Politicians are the new noble class, it's like middle age but instead of count/dukes and the rest we now have politicians. Maybe we need another french revolution. ~~~ gmac Please, enough of this nonsense. What we need is for _people to vote for better politicians_. To my mind, the main obstacle to that is the awful UK press, and the increasing extent to which the BBC is a government broadcaster rather than a public broadcaster. ~~~ probablybroken It will be hard for people to vote for better politicians, so long as those politicians who are allowed to represent an existing party have to be selected by the party itself. ~~~ gmac A large part of the problem is some of the existing parties, sure. But in Brighton, for example, we have Caroline Lucas, who is a wonderful MP. ~~~ secfirstmd Jeremy Corbyn for example is actually a decent human being (can vouch for this as work with him a bit in Westminster), despite some of his policies. However he is hounded out by the media and political class. ~~~ stevetrewick Maybe. But where was he, and where were the rest of his party when this abomination was being shoved through parliament? Abstaining in the commons and cheerleading it in the lords. So pardon me if I don't buy him being a decent chap having any bearing whatsoever on this issue. ~~~ toyg He is clearly not in control of his MPs in the commons, and even less so in the Lords (which are now stacked with Blair cronies). He has to pick his battles very carefully. Mandatory reselection after boundary changes should see to that. ------ Fjolsvith Next up, Politicians exempt themselves from losing office. ------ tupilaq Whilst at first glance this doesn't look altogether fair, I can understand why its been done. The government should not be able to use the tools of state to suppress legitimate parliamentary opposition. There would be nothing to stop the party in power using the law to specifically target opposing parties. For the rest of us here in the UK, your traffic is already being collated and probably has been for some time. ~~~ amelius > The government should not be able to use the tools of state to suppress > legitimate parliamentary opposition. There would be nothing to stop the > party in power using the law to specifically target opposing parties. Why not introduce a law that further decouples intelligence agencies and the government. It could be made mandatory that information released by agencies are released to _all_ members of parliament. This way, the government gets more transparency, and the people also get more transparency indirectly. Just my 2 pence. ~~~ lostboys67 That would require all MP's to be vetted :-) ~~~ amelius We could start by disclosing only (detailed) meta-information. Or we could choose 1 MP per party to be informed. ~~~ toyg The Leader of the Opposition is already in Privy Council, which (I believe) means he'll get most of the security briefs he wants to. He should probably be in COBRA too, but I don't think that's the case at the moment. ------ karmacoda The UK is as corrupt as everyone claims Russia is, starting with the BBC. Theresa May has turned out to be a tyrant. As a Brit, I don't know if I'm more disgusted by the arrogance of the ruling class, or the apathy of the subservient working class. Dystopia is here. Talk of bloody revolution is not necessary - the first cyber revolution? ~~~ jahnu Please. This is hyperbole of the first order. [http://www.transparency.org/country#GBR](http://www.transparency.org/country#GBR) [http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS](http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS) ~~~ yAnonymous "Corruption perception index" That's the problem. Corruption in the UK isn't perceived as such, because they go to greater lengths to hide it. That doesn't change the fact that UK politics are rotten to the core and their politics have a much bigger global effect. Remember when London bankers recently manipulated the stock market and got away with it? And let's not ignore that Transparency International themselves are somewhat shady. They gave Hillary Clinton an award for integrity and that's only the funniest of their failings. ~~~ waqf The fact that people feel compelled to go to greater lengths to hide it is itself a net positive, no? The higher the costs of doing X, the less X there will be. ~~~ yAnonymous >The higher the costs of doing X, the less X there will be. That's a very simplistic and primitive way to look at it. For one, there are more and wealthier people involved so the costs are shared. Profits are also bigger, because the UK is better connected, so the increased investment costs are acceptable.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A pile of matchboxes that can learn [video] - ColinWright https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9c-_neaxeU ====== RubenSandwich I really like the physicality of this method of teaching people about ML. Often times people get lost in all the abstraction, especially if they haven't be trained to be comfortable with an abstract concept on top of an abstract concept. If you want to play against MENACE you can do so here: [http://www.mscroggs.co.uk/menace/](http://www.mscroggs.co.uk/menace/). ~~~ dcomp As mentioned in the video I managed to get MENACE to resign on the first turn After just under 40 Games of beating it in a row. ------ cr0sh I first "encountered" MENACE in a children's book on robotics after I got my first city library card when I was in the second grade; so around age 7 or so. The explanation of how it worked, from what I recall, was very brief, and I didn't understand it much at all. But it was my first introduction to the concept - outside of my experiences with "science fiction" of the time - that an inanimate "machine" could actually learn. This really ignited my passion for computing and robotics, something I have carried with me since. It ultimately led me to becoming a software engineer, and to exploring machine learning and artificial intelligence over the years as well. ------ rimliu When I was a kid I made tick-tack-toe playing matchbox automaton. It was described in one of the M. Gardners book. ------ fjsolwmv Why is this better than drawing a state diagram on paper? ~~~ pandler Because it's tangible and interactive and approachable and memorable. It's something that anyone (read: everyone who doesn't know how what state diagrams are) can visualize and understand within a few minutes at a fun little booth at a public science fair. ~~~ fjsolwmv The match boxes are a state diagram, so if someone can't comprehend a paper diagram they can't comprehend this either. ~~~ CarolineW I know people for whom this is much more understandable than state diagrams. They are equivalent under an appropriate isomorphism, but that doesn't mean that they are equally easy to understand for everyone. They aren't. You made this assertion: ... if someone can't comprehend a paper diagram they can't comprehend this either. I believe you are wrong. ------ Gys A 15 min video. Hmmm. Maybe somebody who watched it wants to recap ? ~~~ mankyd It plays tic-tac-toe. There are 304 matchboxes for each possible state in tic- tac-toe[1]. Each match box has three colored beads in it. Different colors indicate the next move to make. You take the state of the board, find the corresponding matchbox, draw one bead at random out of the box, and make the move. Depending on if the game is a win, loss, or draw, you add or remove beads in the matchboxes to increase or decrease the odds of making that move again. After about 150 games or so, the matchboxes almost always draw against a competent opponent. There is a 1/10 chance that the matchboxes get into a bad state where they can get an empty matchbox. This does not happen in the video. [1] In this scenario, the matchboxes always go first. Letting it go second slightly more than doubles the number of matchboxes. ~~~ jdeisenberg This is the very similar to the technique described in Fred Saberhagen's short story "Without a Thought."	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
YouTube tightens rules after David Icke 5G interview - laumars https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52198946 ====== bcheung We can't outsource our critical thinking to private companies. People need to develop the ability to think critically for themselves and not rely on appeals to authority. This can't happen if people become lazy and simply trust whatever media is out there. This also raises concerns for me around the question of freedom of speech and censorship. I fear we are centralizing too much power into a few private companies that effectively wield more power than the government and the people for whom it represents. I'd rather have freedom of speech even if it means tons of misinformation out there. If and when there is some information that is unpopular but critical for people to know, I don't want censorship to be the norm. ~~~ sp332 There's a huge difference between freedom of speech and actually hurting people. Organizing violence, for example, is already illegal even in many jurisdictions with strong protections for speech. "Information" that's not only going to get people killed but also is factually wrong is definitely fair game IMO. ~~~ champagneben Could you not make the same argument about many politically divisive questions? Medicare for all, climate change, etc. ~~~ sp332 Yeah, politically debatable questions seem much more defensible to me than this. This is a straight-up lie with no benefit to anyone. ~~~ de_watcher You can't easily separate "straight-up lie" and "politically debatable questions". There are tons of "straight-up lies" used for creating questions, making them "politically debatable" and then acting violently. ~~~ nailer A couple of months ago the idea that Covid 19 would become a worldwide epidemic was a conspiracy theory. ~~~ de_watcher It goes both ways. ------ rhema Spreading misinformation is bad. However, maybe casting media into the memory hole risks creating glorified digital martyrs. I wish the WHO made more transparent arguments about the utility of masks. Their failure and apparent flip-flop gives the crazies low-hanging fruit and ethos. ~~~ lukifer We have a major "boy who cried wolf" problem with the media, and many of our truth-finding institutions. There've been enough instances in recent decades of arrogant incompetence and self-serving deception, that the public grows to distrust experts disproportionately in domains where it really matters: vaccines, epidemics, climate change. ~~~ gridlockd A healthy dose of distrust towards experts is necessary, because they're wrong all the time. What about the experts - including those at the CDC - that said COVID-19 was no worse than a flu? Are they no real experts, or are they just the _wrong kind_ of expert? [https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-lesser- thr...](https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-lesser-threat-to- americans-than-flu-2020-1) "Trust the experts" is nothing but an argument from authority. You're likely going to trust whatever expert confirms what you already believe. ~~~ AJ007 This covid-19 debacle illustrated a big conflation with experts and authoritative bureaucracies. Researchers, scientists, and people on the ground in China, Taiwan, and South Korea issued early warnings well ahead of the WHO, CDC, and FDA flip flopping on transmit-ability, masks, and testing. Unfortunately the average person can’t tell the difference between a researched investigative journalism piece in the New York Times and an opinion column in the New York Times. Most people can’t tell the difference between the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Many people can’t tell the difference between the Chicago Tribune and a random website that stole the Chicago Tribune’s layout. All these differences matter an enormous amount. They don’t matter subtlety like missing the freeway exit and taking the next one. They matter like chopping your hand off instead of keeping it. ~~~ ksk >Researchers, scientists, and people on the ground in China, Taiwan, and South Korea issued early warnings well ahead of the WHO, CDC, and FDA flip flopping on transmit-ability, masks, and testing. Do you have a rough timeline for 'well ahead'? From what I've read it was classified as zoonotic, because the staff in China who handled the initial cases weren't presenting, and the wet-market was the only causal link. That's when the WHO reported (mid/late Jan) that human-human transmission wasn't possible. >Unfortunately the average person can’t tell the difference between a researched investigative journalism piece in the New York Times and an opinion column in the New York Times. Most people can’t tell the difference between the Washington Post and the Washington Times. Many people can’t tell the difference between the Chicago Tribune and a random website that stole the Chicago Tribune’s layout. But its not just "average people", its most people, including HN folks. On any expert topic, when you have no hands-on expertise, you apply "common sense", or read some articles, and then you're back to square one. Most scientific fields are advanced to the point where common sense doesn't get you very far. Not only that, there are a lot of professional explainers who muddy the waters by repeating things without understanding the nuances. I think its fine to say whatever, as long as its fine for me to ask "OK, but what makes your opinion worth something". ------ whywhywhywhy Suppressing David Icke only makes this conspiracy stronger. Icke has close to zero credibility in the UK and well known to believe in lizard people and other such wacky theories. If you stop people knowing he is also talking about this then the only people left to talk about it are the regular normal seeming folks. Channels like this [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsAwM1EqcYXKeIEufJqwWjw/vid...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsAwM1EqcYXKeIEufJqwWjw/videos) thousands of views per video, seems like any normal bloke you'd chat to down the pub. So well done by silencing a known eccentric you just made the only voices in this conspiracy the normal everyday folks, if regular people searched this theory and Icke popped up they might have actually questioned it because they don't want to be associated with the lizard guy. ~~~ Majromax > Suppressing David Icke only makes this conspiracy stronger. I think this is begging the question. Why does Youtube, in particular, have an obligation to not "suppress" this person, especially when there's no element of Youtube's terms of service that would force them to carry his content? He's not being hauled to jail by the authorities, he's just being denied (the greatest use of) the Youtube platform. If Youtube wants to enforce a degree of content control over what it hosts, that would ordinarily be its right -- in the same way that if I run a print shop I don't have to print flyers from any crank who walks in the front door. Moreover, you're making a testable point here, that suppression "only makes this conspiracy stronger." Is there social science evidence to back this claim up, or is this just an intuitive opinion? An alternative framework is that by denying a pernicious idea its greatest platforms, it makes the topic seem more rare and thus less credible. (The converse of "everyone's saying it, there must be some truth to it.") ~~~ ramblenode > Moreover, you're making a testable point here, that suppression "only makes > this conspiracy stronger." Is there social science evidence to back this > claim up, or is this just an intuitive opinion? If there is, you might begin with this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect) But the conspiracy minded do seem to latch on to anything resembling information suppression. ------ segmondy They need to be careful, such approach would have limited the info about covid-19. When I was watching the news, youtube videos in early Jan, it was coming from the "conspiracy theory" folks. Not mainstream media. Those folks were right. ~~~ dguaraglia They weren't right, they were just doing their usual shtick: weave panic narratives. The only reason they were 'right' because it so happens COVID-19 is actually pretty bad. But if you go and check their history of 'predictions' I bet everything in my savings account they've predicted a thousand 'tragedies' before and none of them came to pass. In other words: even a broken clock is right twice a day, that doesn't mean it's working. ~~~ rasz They were 100% right. "Wuhan: Chinese Authorities Welding Apartment Doors Shut to Impose Quarantine" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXpHD9bjGe0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXpHD9bjGe0) "Wuhan: Disinfection Spray over Wuhan" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCY6OJskQRk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCY6OJskQRk) 9 Feb 2020 was full conspiracy theory while mass media stood silent. Even today its not entirely common knowledge to what lengths China went at the end of January while WHO was spreading lies about no human to human transmission, no masks, and definitely no international border closing necessary. ------ yters To some degree, the media needs to treat its audience like grown ups who are capable of thinking rationally and coming to reasonable conclusions. The more they try to handhold everyone, it will produce two effects: reduce audience ability to make informed decisions, and reduce audience trust in the media. Someone showed me the Icke lecture, and so we discussed what are easy ways we could falsify his claims. E.g. countries with high incidence of covid19 and no 5g. Especially when the conspiracy theory is so easily debunked the media should handle such cases more liberally. Think of it as inoculating the population against misinformation. I do tentatively agree there are some kinds of misinformation that should be suppressed, but any such thing should be very exceptional, and very well explained. Otherwise, the media will end up being the modern Catholic church and go the way of the reformation. The church has spent centuries undoing the mistakes it made handling Luther's and other's criticisms. ~~~ ceejayoz > the media needs to treat its audience like grown ups who are capable of > thinking rationally and coming to reasonable conclusions Sure, right after we feed them some unicorn tears for breakfast. ~~~ SpicyLemonZest The fact that it's not true is largely irrelevant. When the media pursues a strategy of manipulating the masses rather than reporting the truth, the masses notice and stop believing what the media has to say. In the modern age, the media only has power to the extent that people believe what it's saying. ~~~ ceejayoz The problem extends far beyond "the media". Substantial numbers of people don't trust their own pediatricians on vaccinations. 40% of Americans think God created humans in their current form instead of evolution. Society has become hostile to _facts_ , and sites like YouTube are all too often happy to serve up bullshit if it gets engagement. ~~~ yters The important question to ask is 'why?' Are these people just stupid ignorants requiring being spoon fed information, or is there something more going on? ------ jv22222 > Conspiracy theories linking 5G signals to the coronavirus pandemic continue > to spread despite there being no evidence the mobile phone signals pose a > health risk. > One falsely suggests 5G suppresses the immune system, the other falsely > claims the virus is __somehow using the network's radio waves to communicate > and pick victims, accelerating its spread.__ (__ emphasis mine) W T Actual F people! Facepalm. If it were true it might be one of the greatest discoveries of all time ;) ------ samizdis David Icke: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) Can't remember him when he was a footballer, but I wonder how many times he headed the ball ;-) ~~~ SlowRobotAhead Isn’t this basically an ad hominem attack? I don’t know the guy, but you’re attacking him and not his argument. Isn’t the rule here to take the strongest part of an argument and go off that? Edit: Downvoted on a site for pointing out the rules of the site. Maybes it’s just me, but since the Great Quarantine, some websites have been a little extra smug and “hide the wrong think” prone. ~~~ SketchySeaBeast Are we actually under obligation to listen to everything a crank says and then evaluate each statement? Once I find out someone believes in "reptoids", I don't see a lot of value in wasting my time with them, and it's exhausting to make that effort when they clearly aren't. ~~~ SlowRobotAhead No, I believe you have the option of not watching his content, not replying to it, and generally allowing others to be as wrong as they would like to be. Unless someone is forcing your to interact with him... are they? That isn’t the topic of an ad hominem however. Saying “he’s been kicked in the head too many times” is. ------ whoisjohnkid Don’t like the direction YouTube and other social media companies are headed. This is pretty much censorship of free speech. I understand that he may be spewing garbage, but sheesh. At this rate YouTube will only have content it wants you to see; this is how it starts. ------ jb775 Whenever conspiracy theory talk pops up, I notice 2 groups of people: 1) the conspiracy theorists 2.) the people calling the conspiracy theorists crazy lunatics....rarely anything in-between. Is there anyone out there that can scientifically debunk this guy's claims? ~~~ 01100011 5g isn't alien technology. It was developed over years by engineers and technicians. Did any of those folks show symptoms of 5g poisoning? ~~~ jb775 I have no idea, do you know if those folks haven't shown symptoms of 5g poisoning? Probably something worthy of looking into since many people have concerns about 5g. ~~~ SketchySeaBeast > Probably something worthy of looking into since many people have concerns > about 5g. Take flat earthers. Because many people believe it we should investigate - so people post evidence that the earth is round, the flat earthers reject that evidence and make the flat earth claim again. So do we keep investigating? The same number of people still believe. How many times around that wheel do we go? Do you believe that no one has honestly looked into the health effects of 5g? What evidence do you think it'll take for someone who believes radio waves are causing these effects, even though scientists have pictures of the virus, to have their mind changed? ------ swiley Google: “it’s better to be illiterate than have the possibility to read something wrong.” I swear to god I thought the internet would be so different in 2020. Before (and even after) the ban there was a lot of good information on YouTube, a lot of it was from trained medical professionals and now it’s all going away and people will be left with gossip and guesses. ~~~ gre Could you please elaborate on what you mean by the YouTube information going away? ------ aaron695 How about we remove all the videos claiming people shouldn't be wearing masks? Or is actually saving lives to much bother and it's more fun attacking people who believe in reptilians? ~~~ lonelappde Are those getting as many views? ------ Solvitieg What is the problem with believing 5G causes coronavirus? The people who believe it are misinformed, and so what? I understand why it's harmful to spread anti-vax memes, but 99% of "misinformation" is harmless. It's often difficult to separate theory and conspiracy from harmful information, a dubious concept. ~~~ 01100011 A couple days ago in Long Beach, CA, USA, a train engineer derailed his train in an attempt to stop a medical ship which he believed was part of a government takeover. Conspiracies are all fun and games until a simpleton believes them and does something that hurts others. ~~~ lonelappde [https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live- updates/2020/0...](https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live- updates/2020/04/02/825897966/train-engineer-says-he-crashed-in-attempt-to- attack-navy-hospital-ship-in-l-a) Wow. Is this a "misinformation control" issue or is it more a "monitor mental health of employees in high trust positions" issue? ------ atomashpolskiy _> Now any content that disputes the existence or transmission of Covid-19, as described by the WHO [World Health Organization] and local health authorities is in violation of YouTube policies._ _> This includes conspiracy theories which claim that the symptoms are caused by 5G._ Yeah, fair point. But it's a red herring. _> For borderline content that could misinform users in harmful ways, we reduce recommendations. We'll continue to evaluate the impact of these videos on communities around the world._ This one is KEY. Truth is, the majority of views comes from the Recommended, Trending and Next to Play. No one without a direct link will see your video, if it's nerfed by the algorithm. Checkmate. Corona is a very heated topic with many unknowns. Deciding what can and can not be labeled as misinformation is thus very tricky even for an expert, because there is a very fine line between misinformation and speculation (which is different in the sense that it's done in good faith and thus perfectly fine). Who's going to make these decisions? A private corp with zero transparency? We sorely need very clear distinction (maybe even legal - e.g. a framework for Terms of Service) between _media_ and _medium_. With the former being free to set arbitrary rules, push agendas, ban otherwise harmless content, fuck with content promotion in whatever ways they want, etc. And the latter providing just the infrastructure and technical means to publish content with minimal governance. Status of being either of these must be granted upfront and then prohibited to change. Otherwise every "social media" platform will eventually mutate into a weaponized propaganda machine, promoting the interests of its stakeholders and greater powers-that-be and suppressing any dissenting opinion. This temptation is evidently impossible to resist. ~~~ guscost If you weren't already convinced that YouTube is a publisher rather than a platform, this latest episode should make it obvious. ~~~ atomashpolskiy Absolutely. My point is that this won't change unless we as a society explicitly regulate/prohibit such behavior. ------ bishalb All social media are strangely censoring anything that even remotely questions the official coronavirus story. I had shared this article on twitter some days ago and it's not even some weird conspiracy theory but twitter flagged it [https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-t...](https://off- guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-the-coronavirus-panic/) ~~~ jswny Because this is not the time for conspiracy theories. People talking about the earth being flat doesn't really hurt anyone. People believing conspiracy theories about a global pandemic can be seriously dangerous. ~~~ s9w This particular incident actually sounds like it involves pretty heavy "out there" stuff. But in general the term conspiracy theory means barely more than "not in line with government press releases". The average conspiracy theory guy is much less crazy than one might assume and a surprising number of now public revelations have been circulating in these corners of the internet way earlier. It can be quite informative and challenge critical thinking at the same time. ~~~ jswny I have no problem with conspiracy theories, or people talking about them. What I do have a problem with is the general category of misinformation/conspiracy theories which hurt or endanger others. For instance, for every person who doesn't get a vaccination because they believe some of the anti-vaccination conspiracy theories, there is an immune-compromised individual who is being put into harm's way because of misinformation because they medically cannot receive the vaccine. In the case of the coronavirus, we are dealing with a very dangerous global pandemic, and I personally think that this falls into the category of "misinformation can be very dangerous." ~~~ s9w People are entitled to form their own opinions, even and in particular on vaccinations. They own their body after all. ~~~ jswny As much as I agree with you when it comes to pretty much anything else, I have to draw a line when it comes to conspiracy theories which are undeniably false such as anti-vaccination ones, which harm others who cannot medically get vaccinations. ~~~ s9w I see your point and can understand your position. Just as a counterpoint I would still add that "undeniably false" is a very high bar that many believe is not reached with some topics, the "gospel" (not meant dismissive) on vaccinations being one of them. ------ okareaman This will only further fuel the conspiracy theories because of course the high tech companies suppress information critical of 5G ------ comzilla I think a solution would be to let the video on the platform but display a huge yellow banner or something like Reddit's quarantine thing where it says "this video contains misinformation about Covid-19" or something more intrusive if you'd like. That way you're not necessarily compromising free speech ~~~ lonelappde How about modelling good behavior? Instead of opinionated name-calling "misinformation", simply add a comment with their claims about such and such authorities explanation of the situation. If you can trust people to believe your facts, why would you assume they trust your opinions? ------ briefcomment The interview is on London Real's FB page for anyone interested. [https://www.facebook.com/londonreal/videos/206277527340570/?...](https://www.facebook.com/londonreal/videos/206277527340570/?vh=e&d=n) ------ gridlockd I don't think this is helpful, it's quite possibly counter-productive. If you're prone to conspiracy thinking, you're going to link any current event to any alternative explanation, no matter how far fetched. If 5G wasn't in the news, it would be something else. Suppressing the signal only makes it stronger, because now you've "proven" that "the elite can't allow the secret information out". David Icke is preaching to the choir, he isn't converting anyone. Nobody who is otherwise capable of sound reasoning is going to watch him and go: "I might disagree with this person on whether Zionist Reptile Shapeshifters are controlling the world, but his analysis of the effects of 5G on human health and COVID-19 seem credible!" Conspiracy thinking is extremely common even among clinically sane people. The "cure" is not suppression, not derision, but letting people figure it out how their mind sometimes works against them. The biggest obstacle is the human ego. ------ mullingitover Good. This conspiracy theory idiocy about 5G is actively harmful to public infrastructure and it has to stop. My only complaint is that Icke wasn't demonetized over this. He should be banned from the platform entirely. He's actively harmful to society. ~~~ gridlockd I disagree completely. David Icke is responsible for the major conspiracy theory innovation that the Zionists controlling the world are actually shape- shifting Reptilians, effectively letting the Jews off the hook. That means a set of people who could've otherwise ended up in classic Nazi conspiracy circles end up in something closer to a science fiction fanclub. Yet another set of people who dipped their toes into conspiracy theories might actually start to question whether it's all bullshit, upon finding that the Pope is supposedly a lizard. The 5G thing on the other hand is something that _a lot_ of people think is probably dangerous, whether they're conspiracy theorists or not. Of course conspiracy theorists picked it up, but if it wasn't 5G, it would be fluoride, or contrails, or literally anything else that might somehow be polluting water, ground or air. ~~~ DanBC Except when Icke says "the aliens" sometimes he means aliens and sometimes he means "The Jews". Anti-Semitism is part of his beliefs. See for example this. [https://twitter.com/davidicke/status/667764406466441216](https://twitter.com/davidicke/status/667764406466441216) ~~~ gridlockd Icke's theory does not differentiate between Zionists, Illuminati, the Rothschilds, the royal family, the pope and so on. They are all reptilian shapeshifters from another universe, sometimes posing as Jewish leaders, sometimes as Christian or secular leaders, but it's never "the Jews" as a people. The reason this distinction is important is because if you believe "your enemy" is really reptilians from another dimension, you don't have a reason to be hating or threatening the jews next door. It's strictly better than you becoming a Neonazi ready to pick up where the "final solution" left off, which is another possible trajectory. Bottom line, if you have the predisposition to believe in "secret group controls the world" stuff, I'd much rather have you believe in Icke's theories. If you _don 't_ have that predisposition, you're not going to believe in any of that stuff either way. You don't need to be "protected". ~~~ lonelappde This is absurd. Saying "famous Zionist are reptiles" doesn't protect non famous Zionists. It promotes violence because it's a lot easier to set fire to a synagogue than assassinate a Prime Minister. ~~~ gridlockd Jews and Zionists are not the same. A lot of Jews aren't Zionists, in fact some of the most Jewish looking Jews are anti-Zionist: [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FKplabTRuak/maxresdefault.jpg](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FKplabTRuak/maxresdefault.jpg) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Jewish_anti- Zioni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Jewish_anti-Zionism) Furthermore, a huge amount of _leftists_ are openly anti-Zionist. I'm not saying the alien lizard theory is "protecting" anyone, I'm saying it's the _better alternative_ to whatever Nazi conspiracy theory you're going to buy into otherwise. ------ newsdig latest updated figures of coronavirus on [https://coronaworld.info](https://coronaworld.info) ------ basicplus2 The answer is education.. we need free, comprehensive education for every person on the planet ~~~ lonelappde Cool. So, who writes the textbooks? The Indian government allegedly (can't find source except John Oliver's TV show, so take with grain of salt) published textbooks claiming that Caucasian people are undercooked toast and Africans are burnt toast, and is currently running an ethnicity cleansing campaign to eliminate Muslims. ------ senectus1 oh man... David Ike. If you ever wanted a trip through la la land go visit his website's forums.... Its a not so coherent and less nasty version of 4Chan where _everyone_ is off the hinge. some more than others. ------ ornornor This makes me wonder if there will be “covid19 deniers” in the future just like there have been holocaust deniers ever since the war, claiming that it never happened and is a conspiracy. It’s really depressing these theories, anti vaccine, and anti science ideas are gaining so much momentum in recent years. And then the world governments pull something like they just did, saying masks don’t work when in fact they help... how can you ever convince anti science people to trust, well, science and governments when this happens?? I suspect this will become a bigger and bigger problem, with more and more people dying of illnesses we have vaccines for. Very sad. ~~~ LyndsySimon There already are “deniers”. ------ dreamlayers If some speech is suppressed everywhere, how can one know that it's false? ------ poarneemn123 Just because there is no evidence (yet) doesn't mean it is misinformation ------ jstewartmobile When did David Icke try to pass a gun range in Kentucky off as Syria? [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/business/media/turkey- syr...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/business/media/turkey-syria- kentucky-gun-range.html) ~~~ lern_too_spel When did David Icke issue a correction? ~~~ jstewartmobile What does David Icke have to correct? ~~~ detaro 2 random examples that would be useful corrections from him: "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion aren't a legitimate historical document laying out a plan for world domination" "No world leaders are human/shapeshifting-alien hybrids" ~~~ jstewartmobile In that case, " _The Weekly World News_ " has a lot of corrections to issue. ~~~ lern_too_spel So you've admitted that Icke and The Weekly World News are comparable and not like ABC News. ~~~ jstewartmobile I admit that I don't live in bizzaro world--where some crazy old man's conspiracy theories must be suppressed, while multi-billion-dollar corporations that deceive broadly, frequently, and incompetently are the " _good guys_." " _But, BUT, we retracted!_ " After they were caught... ~~~ lern_too_spel It was incompetence that they then corrected. Should the whole company be disbanded for a few employees' corrected mistake? Meanwhile, crazy old man has never retracted any of his conspiracy theories, instead repeating them over and over. One is a reliable source of information, and the other is a reliable source of misinformation.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How is Stephen Hawking still alive? - Semetric http://kottke.org/15/02/how-is-stephen-hawking-still-alive ====== tomtoise [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning- mix/wp/2015/02/24...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning- mix/wp/2015/02/24/how-stephen-hawking-survived-longer-than-possibly-any-other- als-patient/) ^ Clickthrough to the actual article.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Rupert has balls - rms http://www.buzzmachine.com/2009/11/27/rupert-has-balls/ ====== ig1 Murdoch bought MySpace with a valuation of 330 million. In 2008 their revenue was 600 million and they had a market valuation of well into billions. Buying MySpace was clearly a success. ------ ojbyrne Lack of content - check. Uncritical cheerleading for dotcom executives - check. ~~~ rms I don't think this is good writing or anything. As you point out, it's kind of terrible. However, I think the author's main point is correct. Rupert just makes it up as he goes along. There is no grand plan with his Google stand- off. It's like a poker semi-bluff, he can go with it because any outcome is acceptable. ~~~ pmorici Being right doesn't make it interesting or well written or worth while reading. ------ jimbokun "Experience? Well, that was Jack Welch, until the value of experience expired." Has the value of experience really expired? ~~~ felixc I don't know if it's how the phrase was originally intended, but it makes a lot more sense to me if I read it as "until the value of _his_ experience expired." I don't think "experience" in general could possibly expire (it's just another word for "knowledge", after all!), but certainly individual experiences can become irrelevant. ~~~ nir I'm not sure "Jack Welch's experience has expired" makes much sense either..	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Amazon ‘robo-pricing’ sparks fears - davidw http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/26c5bb7a-c12f-11e1-8179-00144feabdc0.html#axzz206xx7k6d ====== davidw If you can't access it directly, do a google search for the title of this post, and it should take you to the article.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Do Social Rights Affect Social Outcomes? - barry-cotter https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ajps.12421 ====== barry-cotter > While the United Nations and NGOs are pushing for global judicialization of > economic, social, and cultural rights (ESCRs), little is known of their > consequences. We provide evidence of the effects of introducing three types > of ESCRs into the constitution: the rights to education, health, and social > security. Employing a large panel covering annual data from 160 countries in > the period 1960–2010, we find no robust evidence of positive effects of > ESCRs. We do, however, document adverse medium‐term effects on education, > inflation, and civil rights.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Here’s How Much Real Estate $1 Million Buys You in Every Major U.S. City - shravan http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/03/17/real_estate_market_how_much_does_1_million_buy_you_in_every_major_u_s_city.html ====== rayiner This is dumb, because its in large part a measure of where city boundaries are drawn, as demonstrated by the New York example. The equivalent of SF isn't NYC, it's Manhattan. The city boundaries are just drawn such that NYC includes Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx, and SF excludes the corresponding places in the Bay area (Oakland, etc). Looking at a city-wide average doesn't tell you much. DC also seems off, again because of the boundaries. The average excludes places in Arlington and Maryland that are spatially and in terms of density part of the city. The fact that Arlington is part of Virginia is a historical accident (was part of DC, taken back during Civil War). It doesn't reflect any real property of the city. Many places in Arlington are much quicker on the Metro to downtown than many places in DC. ------ bane I remember when we bought our current house in 2007. It was the top of the market and for fun we looked at what we could buy in different parts of the country for the same money. In NYC we found a listing for an empty lot. It was pretty bad looking. I think you might have been able to fit two compact cars side by side on it. SF wasn't much better, but at least had a dwelling of some kind on it. Detroid was...well you could have bought a street full of condemned houses. So we decided to look outside of cities and came across a listing in Arkansas. At first we didn't understand it because it was just an aerial photo of some greenery and some houses. Finally we realized, that _was_ the listing, it was 150 acres with 5 buildings, one of them was a 2700 sq ft home, there were two guest homes and a 5 car garage and some other kind of large barn structure. The listing assured the potential buyer that the property was zoned in such a way it could be subdivided into lots "as small as 5 acres". The only way they could get a photo of it all was from the air. ------ camillomiller If anyone's wondering, I did the math with Rome to add some international perspective. It sits right between SF and Boston: 1915 sq. feet. ------ shravan No surprise that SF is the most expensive. ~~~ Terretta It's not, Manhattan is.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: What Was NASA817 Up to over California? - mastry It looks like some kind of a search pattern [1], but I can't think of a good reason to do that in a DC-8.<p>[1] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA817/history/20190722/1800Z/KPMD/KBOI ====== caycep geographically, wildfire surveillance? atmospheric chemistry monitoring? just speculation...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
America’s gender-fluid future, in 100 years of baby name trends - johnny313 https://qz.com/1237944/americas-gender-fluid-future-in-100-years-of-baby-name-trends/ ====== onychomys Note that when the article says "...and Scarlett and Victoria at 1.00, without a single boy.", they actually don't know that for sure. The SSA doesn't report on any name given to less than five children (for privacy reasons), so it's possible that there were up to four male Victorias born last year.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Visualizing matrix multiplication as a linear combination - signa11 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2015/visualizing-matrix-multiplication-as-a-linear-combination/ ====== ubasu Here's how you can apply this interpretation of matrix multiplication: Think of the columns of the matrix A as basis vectors of a coordinate system represented in global coordinates, and the vector v as the components of a vector in that coordinate system. Then the product A * v transforms the vector v into the global coordinate system. Carrying this forward, matrix multiplication A * B gives the combined representation of two coordinate transformations. ~~~ adamtj Another way to look at it: A matrix is a linear transformation, and multiplying a vector by a matrix is how you apply the transformation. But linear transformations are really just changes of basis. How do you change your basis? You find the dot product of a vector with each new basis vector. And that's exactly what matrix multiplication is. When you multiply your column vector by a row in the matrix, you're finding the dot product, doing the projection in your change of basis. ------ dmd Hmm. As someone who has never understood/visualized/been taught matrix multiplication in any other way than how it's shown on the linked page, could someone explain the alternative? I.e., if this is new, what mental model do you currently have? Presumably that one would be new and useful for me. Edit: "Typically this visualization isn't taught" \-- that's what I"m asking. What visualization _were_ you taught, if not this one? I can't think of any other that makes any sense. ~~~ eliben Typically, this visualization isn't taught, in my experience. What's taught is the formula for computing each cell of the result matrix (cell i,j being the dot product of row i of the first matrix with column j of the second). While this is, of course correct, and also the most efficient way to compute the multiplication manually, it's not always clear why the formula is correct. Hopefully the visualization on the linked page makes this formula's origin clear. ~~~ hdevalence Really? Interesting. We spent some time discussing multiplication by block decompositions in my 100-level linear algebra class -- is this really uncommon? ------ ef4 If you want more, I can definitely recommend the video lectures from MIT's linear algebra course by Prof Gilbert Strang: [http://web.mit.edu/18.06/www/videos.shtml](http://web.mit.edu/18.06/www/videos.shtml) ~~~ ivan_ah +1 for the Strang videos. He's an amazing lecturer. e.g. in Lecture 1 explains very clearly matrix multiplication in the "column picture" and the "row picture". More intuition than you can shake a stick at: [http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-06-linear- algebra-...](http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-06-linear-algebra- spring-2010/video-lectures/lecture-1-the-geometry-of-linear-equations/) This tutorial is also pretty good for geometrical intuition: [http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~eero/NOTES/geomLinAlg.pdf](http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~eero/NOTES/geomLinAlg.pdf) ------ arithma This is the way I "understood" linear algebra. I even encoded it here in a small c++ header file when I used to think it wise to implement these things yourself: [https://github.com/arithma/mat44/blob/master/mat44.h](https://github.com/arithma/mat44/blob/master/mat44.h) Used here: [https://github.com/arithma/ios3dball](https://github.com/arithma/ios3dball) ~~~ eliben > when I used to think it wise to implement these things yourself It's a very good thing that you thought it wise at some point. There's nothing like reinventing a few fundamental wheels for a better understanding of how they work. ------ graycat Sure, in the matrix product AB = C, C has the same number of rows as A and the same number of columns as B, and each column j of C is from column j of B acting as coefficients in a linear combination of all the columns of A. Next: For the set of real numbers R, positive integers m and n, m by n real matrix A, real numbers a and b, and n by 1 x and y, we have that A(ax + by) = (aA)x + (bA)y so that A is _linear_. If we regard x and y as _vectors_ in the n-dimensional real vector space R^n, then we have that A is a function A: R^n --> R^m and a _linear operator_ which can be good to know. Then the subset of R^n K = { x \| x in R^n and Ax = 0 } (where 0 is the m by 1 matrix of all zeros) is important to understand. E.g., K = [0] if and only if function A is 1-1. If m = n, then A has an inverse A^(-1) if and only if A is 1-1. With C = AB, the matrix product is the same as _function composition_ so that Cx = (AB)x = A(Bx) which also can be good to know and, of course, uses just the associative law of matrix multiplication. That matrix multiplication is associative is a biggie -- sometimes says some big things, e.g., is the core of duality theory in linear programming. And the situation is entirely similar for the complex numbers C in place of the real numbers R. ------ pharke I don't know why but it seems to make more sense to me if I think of the multiplication in terms of rotating or transposing and moving the vector or matrix so that the columns or rows line up with the ones they are to be multiplied with, the coloured guides are entirely useless to me. ------ howling There are 2 types of matrix multiplications which should not be confused with each other. The first type is a change of basis where the columns of the matrix are the old basis represented in the new basis. The second type is a linear function that takes in a vector and outputs another vector. ------ peatfreak What is the point of this blog post? Matrix multiplication is shown like this, and in many other similar ways, in many introductory linear algebra textbooks. ------ benihana This article was posted a few weeks ago, helped me understand matrix operations I've been trying to wrap my head around for years: [http://betterexplained.com/articles/linear-algebra- guide/](http://betterexplained.com/articles/linear-algebra-guide/) ~~~ chris_wot I'm actually studying linear algebra right now, and this site has given me insights my text book (which is actually pretty good!) just hasn't. Thanks for the link :-) ------ enupten Yeah, but this is so boring and oh-so-run-of-the-mill. (If the mafiosi could read the following paper before rushing to click down- vote, then I'd be much obliged. [http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarimY/DM85.pdf](http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarimY/DM85.pdf))	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Feminism and Microcontrollers: Building new clubhouses with the LilyPad Arduino - mbrubeck http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/20101001-00 ====== MaysonL And a paper going into more detail: <http://hlt.media.mit.edu/publications/buechley_DIS_10.pdf>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How can you help non-programmers understand the development process? - protomyth http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/how-can-you-help-non-programmers-understand-the-development-process/ ====== mgl There was this interdisciplinary course during my PhD studies where computer science students were meeting (traditional) architecture students to talk about their professions and exchange ideas. It was so much fun to describe software development to them as a process of designing and bulding a structure when the investors can change their mind on the building's proportions, windows location and general application at any stage of the process, there are only some vague general rules on what a solid construction should look like and there is no external supervision involved at all to sign off the building as safe and complete. It may look surprising from an external view. ~~~ rbanffy Please, write an article about it. Sounds like an incredibly rich experience. ------ andrewcooke why not link to [http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/4/getting- non...](http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/4/getting-non- programmers-to-understand-the-development-process) ? this seems to be pretty much a cut+paste. ------ mrose Here's a one sentence answer that I think would help non-technology people understand software in general: It's like writing a "Choose Your Own Adventure" story in a foreign language.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
New discovery throws light on mystery of pyramids' construction - HillaryBriss https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/06/new-discovery-throws-light-on-mystery-of-pyramids-construction ====== rando444 I always like seeing discoveries about the pyramids, but I don't get the feeling this tells us as much as the article wants the reader to believe. _the job of hauling into place the huge blocks of stone used to build the monuments may have been completed more quickly than previously thought_ There is no current timeline for how the great pyramid was built. The only frame of reference that we have is the assumption that the pyramid was built in Kufu's lifetime and all other estimates are derived from that. We really have no idea how long it took the original builders to move those stones. Each stone weighs an average of 2.5T (up to 10T) .. and the stones were quarried from hundreds of kilometers away.. With a total of 2.5 million giant stones coming from such extreme distances, I don't get the feeling we're much closer to coming up with an actual timeline for how long this took. ~~~ acqq > With a total of 2.5 million giant stones coming from such extreme distances Afaik most of the stones were quaried very near the pyramids. Most of the stones aren’t the “quality stones” and didn’t have to travel distances: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza) “The Great Pyramid consists of an estimated 2.3 million blocks which most believe to have been transported from nearby quarries.” ~~~ 6d6b73 If we assume 40 years (350400) to build the pyramids they had to quarry, deliver and setup 6.5 blocks every hour of every day. Seems doable, especially in a country with population probably below 1mln at that time. /s ~~~ gameswithgo distance to quarry would only affect stone latency, not stone throughput, anyway :D ~~~ sbov Not really true. In networking throughput vs latency rely on two different things. When it comes to moving huge stone blocks they rely on the same limited resource (humans). ~~~ cryptonector They would have used boats on the Nile to carry stones long ways. They probably only did that for the finish blocks (the polished limestone most of which is gone). ------ blancheneige I'm 90% sure I remember watching a documentary from 10+ years ago about a French egyptologist postulating the same mechanism and finding evidence for these ramps on site. I remember specifically how it solved a major puzzle pertaining to the transportation of such heavy blocks within the upper levels of the pyramid as it was being constructed. ~~~ e40 I watched a Nova about it, where the did experiments. Had to be 5+ years ago. ------ matt-attack I wasn't expecting a photo, so I wasn't disappointed. ~~~ rando444 here is a photo i came across while researching this more: [https://news.sky.com/story/great-pyramids-discovery-sheds- li...](https://news.sky.com/story/great-pyramids-discovery-sheds-light-on- construction-in-ancient-egypt-11546095) ~~~ lostlogin I can’t tell if you’re joking. Is the second photo showing something important? ~~~ jaysonelliot The second photo shows the ramp that they discovered. ~~~ lostlogin Yes, but it’s not exactly an informative image. ~~~ cryptonector The angle isn't great, yeah, but you can see a) steps, b) one post hole. That's what's described in TFA. ------ olivermarks 'Egyptologists stumble across ramp' given the incredible amount of research, mapping and unanswered questions about the 'mystery' this seems pretty flimsy stuff to me. ~~~ empath75 they didn't stumble across the ramp, they stumbled across the post holes in the ramp. ------ gumby Interesting that they discuss pulling via human labor but not with bullocks, which the pharaonic Egyptians did have. Could it be there are no such pictures of animals pulling stones? ~~~ bluGill Nothing beats a human for long distance travel ability on land. Birds go farther, but they fly. Many animals can sprint faster, but on the timescale of a few days all land animals would drop dead trying to keep up with a human walking. Sure the pace is slow, and the amount a single human can do is less than other animals. However for long distances humans do better than any other animal. The bullock might have been useful for hauling a short hard distance (out of the quarry for example). However if the quarry is a long ways away (this might or might not be true) humans are the best labor choice. ~~~ kieckerjan Can you give some references to back up that claim? What about horses, camels, elephants, to name just a few obvious examples? Thanks. ~~~ merdreubu [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o) Persistence hunt in the Kalahari. ~~~ strig That's a very different workload than pulling a heavy weight for long distances though. ~~~ bluGill It is important to point out that heavy is relative. Heavy to a human is light to a bullock. ------ LyndsySimon If I'm reading this correctly, they found post holes and a steeper ramp than expected, which leads them to believe that they both pushed the blocks up the slope and pulled them, through a "pulley system". I'm not so sure. I remember from high school that the pulley was one of the five simple machines noted by Hero of Alexandria, but he lived over 2000 years after the Great Pyramid was built. I have no idea if the pulley was possessed by the ancient Egyptians - absent additional evidence, I would assume that they likely just wrapped ropes around the vertical posts. That wouldn't qualify as a pulley (which is by definition a wheel and axle) but would explain the holes and the steeper slope, but wouldn't require a drastic change in how we understand that the pyramids were built. ~~~ RandallBrown People have proposed a pulley that the Egyptians could have had. Not sure if there is any evidence that they did have it beyond what's mentioned in the article. [https://egyptianpulley.com](https://egyptianpulley.com) ------ onetimemanytime how about a drawing or two. 3d even better. Maybe my sinuses are making my head explode but reading about how...just not doing it. ------ givan But why do we insist to think that the the pyramids were built with such primitive tools? It's not only the weight of the stone blocks and the distance but also the mathematical precision, the perfectly round holes drilled in some stones, the puzzle shaped carved stones to stand earthquakes and the perfectly chiseled pharaoh stone statues and all the amazing things there that it makes me wonder why do we insist they used chisels and ropes and all that things that we associate with primitives? Why is so hard to admit that they had some kind of advanced technology that for some reason has been lost? Is this so scary to admit for a culture that wants to think is the pinnacle of human history? The same thinking that we are the center of the universe type of mentality. ~~~ gameswithgo >but also the mathematical precision How precise exactly? What are you talking about exactly? You can do incredibly precise things without "advanced" tools. > perfectly round holes A perfectly round anything isn't even possible. What exactly do you mean? Round is one of the easier things to accomplish. A very precise square hole or ellipse would be more interesting! ~~~ cryptonector Precision was easy. The great pyramid's east and west sides are very well aligned with the meridians they lie on. Impressive? Not really. They surveyed well and they used the two near-polar circumpolar start available to them at the time. The would wait until those two stars were aligned vertically to the horizon and then they laid down ropes/strings/markers along the sides and at the corners, then they built within those constraints and the north side necessarily came out shorter than the south side. They might not even have noticed that the north and south sides came out to be different lengths, who knows. There were simple, primitive, and basic astronomic techniques trivially available to the ancient Egyptians for precise layout of large objects like the pyramids. This may seem surprising to us now, but if you think about it, it becomes obvious.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Here's How NASA thinks society will collapse - 8sigma http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/heres-how-nasa-thinks-society-will-collapse/441375/?utm_source=atlfb&single_page=true ====== MrLeftHand Sounds fantastic. So, who will try to convince the wealthy to give up their status and distribute their wealth to the poor? And who will tell the poor who suddenly has a lot of wealth, that this doesn't mean you can have anything you want now? I have the feeling we wont learn until something really big and stupid happens, killing millions by the minute. Even after that a few generations pass and everything will be the same as it always was and will be.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How do I dive into a bigger codebase? - s4chin All I have done till now is write and read code which was small in size. How do I get started with reading a bigger codebase? For ex. The Chromium Project, etc ====== MarkCole Having recently done this what I like to do is perform some actions, and follow it through the codebase. So for example on a web project, what happens when I hit the index page? First it hits the router/dispatcher, it is handed off to this controller, the controller calls the database. Etc. So for the chromium project I'd try to work my way through, by performing an action. Then asking how it is performed, and follow the code through. Hope this helps. ------ hacknat I'm reiterating what's already been said by others, but as more explicit instructions: 1\. Download the code and figure out how to build it. 2\. Figure out how to run it. 3\. Figure out how to attach a debugger to it. 4\. Figure out where to listen/break for an event whose purpose you pretty much understand (like the initial DNS request). 5\. Follow the code down the rabbit-hole, you'll be amazed at how quickly it connects you to everything else in the code. ------ brudgers It looks like the git repository is 22GB or 6.5GB without the commit history. I doubt a person can read that much in a lifetime. So I guess the best approach depends on finer grained goals. ------ lastofus I sometimes like to pick a module, set a breakpoint in a debugger, and start stepping through it to see where it takes me.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Netflix – Goodbye Stars, Hello Thumbs - te0x https://media.netflix.com/en/company-blog/goodbye-stars-hello-thumbs# ====== ansible This change doesn't bother me as much as it seems to with some people. Lately, I have tended not to rate any shows unless I give it a 5-start because I thought it was good. "Was that documentary I just watched worth a 4-star, or maybe a 3-star because the middle part was boring?" I usually don't put in that level of mental effort to try to fairly rate something. This way, I won't have any compunctions thumbing-down a lot of the crap I see, without feeling guilty for not having actually watched it to see if it was any good or not.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Clown elected to Brazilian Congress - sz http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5imrl_6qHwYFdPbsqDwBRIX7pD4tA?docId=CNG.9169ad9303e8b3a2ca9470b5e05e2e20.b81 ====== jdale27 This is news? There's a few hundred clowns in the U.S. congress... ~~~ aphistic At least this one is being honest about what he is!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Rails Has Turned into Java - urlwolf http://discursive.com/2013/02/19/rails-you-have-turned-into-java-congratulations/ ====== lkrubner In the year 2013 it is difficult to remember why Rails was such an explosive breath of fresh air, back when it burst onto the mainstage in 2004/2005. The essay that I think best captured the switch in popularity, from Java (and EJBs and Struts, etc) to Rails, was "The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts" by Bruce Eckel, written in December of 2005. He wrote: "One of the basic tenets of the Python language has been that code should be simple and clear to express and to read, and Ruby has followed this idea, although not as far as Python has because of the inherited Perlisms. But for someone who has invested Herculean effort to use EJBs just to baby-sit a database, Rails must seem like the essence of simplicity. The understandable reaction for such a person is that everything they did in Java was a waste of time, and that Ruby is the one true path." <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312> ~~~ adventureloop I know it is not the mode to comment to mention your own up vote. Rails might have deteriorated in ease of use, but I cannot imagine it being worse than Java EE was in 2004. Modern Java EE is a world of pain, even simple apps are difficult to build. The entire front end stack is antisocial, difficult to extend and anachronistic. I don't think anyone working with a modern java web stack could read this post about rails 'being like java' without a dark chuckle. ~~~ currywurst Have you tried Java EE 6 ? JAX-RS in particular is a _splendidly_ designed api for RESTful services. And then you can make single page apps instead of JSF. This method is even going have ide support in Netbeans 7.3 with wizard-driven Backbone/Angular app generation. ~~~ mbell JAX-RS is really nice for building APIs and I actually prefer the way it works to Sinatra, especially if using it with Groovy. But, this isn't Sinatra vs EE6, its Rails vs EE6, so its not a proper comparison. To compare with Rails you've got to look at other parts of EE6: JSF + CDI + JPA, which is an awful mess. JSF by itself is enough to kill its usability for many modern applications, the amount of state JSF carries around is ridiculous. ~~~ tmo9d Ah, watch out for JSF, it's a dangerous place. JPA on the other hand is surprisingly good these days try Spring 3 Oliver Gierke has done good things. ~~~ mbell JPA is fine, if and only if you've got a framework managing the entity manager lifecycle for you in a reasonable way. In my opinion if I need an entire separate framework (or container) to manage it, I think its broken. I've switched to Ebean for Java ORM and am vastly happier now. JPA also gets the award for the worst programmatic query building API I've ever seen. As a result it seems like the majority of people just use JPQL strings which is really annoying as its also SQL but not quite SQL. ------ kevinconroy No, Rails hasn't turned into Java. Rails has matured into a complex ecosystem. Java has also matured into a complex ecosystem. Frameworks upon frameworks is a recipe for complexity, potential performance problems, bottlenecks, and environmental/context-specific issues regardless of the language that you're using. Will there ever be a language or simple framework that is popular, solves all problems, and doesn't get more complex as its ecosystem matures? I won't bet on it, but if you figure it out, someone will still eventually compare you to a no-longer-hipster-cool framework as an insult. ~~~ tmo9d I added in a note, I think this is the multi-year result of not having a old, grey-haired standards committee around creating APIs. I made fun of Sun and Oracle for doing things like this for years, but after futzing around with Rails frameworks, integration, and edge-cases. I think I would have preferred to have people sitting around a conference call saying things like, "Hey Devise people, your authentication approach looks like a good standard, why don't we formalize it so we can make this stuff easier to integrate." I know this makes me sound old. I own that. ~~~ kevinconroy I, for one, welcome our W3C overlords. ~~~ tmo9d Oh c'mon it's much much worse than that. Oracle runs the JCP not the W3C. And, yes, I admit it, I'm a jerk. ------ RyanZAG I don't get the Java hate. The stuff in Java is not there just to make your life miserable, it's a result of thousands of people spending millions of hours on complex problems finding that certain methods work well when your source code base becomes too large for simplistic methods. The fact is: Java works, and it works well. Ruby/Rails is getting there, as we see from larger and larger code bases being build on Ruby/Rail and needing more and more of the hated 'Java' features - because they work. Any language can be used for a small project and work very well - precious few can still continue to work well at scale. I've found a lot of the HN crowd to be biased in this area. I believe that comes from most of HN working in startups which means less legacy code, smaller code bases, and more focused products with less management bureaucracy and changes. A sizable part of HN is also younger and hasn't yet worked in an environment of sufficient scale to require Java's(c++, advanced RoR, etc) features. I could be way off here - but if you're knocking this kind of complexity and haven't worked on a massive project - it might simply be your frame of reference and you should stop knocking it. ~~~ fleitz The whole point of rails is not to build massive projects. If you're building massive projects with thousands of classes on rails then you should be all means switch to J2EE. ~~~ cglee This needs to be repeated over and over. We see so many pundits pushing the "right" way to build Rails applications now. Rails was a reaction _against_ large applications. The major use case is to build CRUDs in front of a db. If your application out grows Rails, it's not a condemnation about Rails, or your team, or an earlier choice. If you're Twitter or Facebook, don’t use Rails out of the box. For the rest of us who _want_ to work on small applications, Rails is still beautiful. And when I say small, I mean applications around the complexity of a Basecamp or Github. ~~~ fleitz Fully agree, the next boogey man against rails is performance which again is quite a silly argument when you have customers and servers cost $5 / month. ------ lkrubner The pushback against Ruby/Rails has been building for a long time. There's always been jokes about Ruby being slow: <http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/> But there was a stretch from around 2005 to maybe 2008 where Rails seemed to defy criticism. It grew and grew, despite the criticism. I tried it for a project in 2006 and I became a fan. The easy use of 3rd party code, via gems, was much easier than anything I had known in Java or PHP. I do not know a way to say when some of the criticism began to stick, but clearly things have changed. I have my own personal experience: once a fan of Ruby and now a fan of Clojure. And others have moved on -- there was recently the conversation about multi-threaded Ruby apps, and it seemed to me all the smart people agreed that jRuby is the future of Ruby: [http://tonyarcieri.com/2012-the-year-rubyists-learned-to- sto...](http://tonyarcieri.com/2012-the-year-rubyists-learned-to-stop- worrying-and-love-the-threads) If I had to pick one moment when some of the criticism against Rails began to take hold, even among those who had once favored Rails, it was Zed Shaw's insane rant: <http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-ghetto> Even though the tone is insane, he made some points that stuck in people's heads, including mine. This was important to note: "I believe, if I could point at one thing it’s the following statement on 2007-01-20 to me by David H. creator of Rails: (15:11:12) DHH: before fastthread we had ~400 restarts/day (15:11:22) DHH: now we have perhaps 10 (15:11:29) Zed S.: oh nice (15:11:33) Zed S.: and that's still fastcgi right? Notice how it took me a few seconds to reply. This one single statement basically means that we all got duped. The main Rails application that DHH created required restarting ~400 times/day. That’s a production application that can’t stay up for more than 4 minutes on average." And even now, in 2013, when I have to set up a new server with Rails, even with Nginx and Unicorn and all the other systems to help me, I find Rails annoying to set up, especially compared to the simplicity of PHP running on Apache or a Clojure app bundled up with something like "lein uberjar". ~~~ phillmv Uhm. We deployed a new server last night. `cap staging deploy:setup` `cap staging deploy` `cap staging deploy:migrate` You do have to know how to setup Unicorn but… ~~~ throwawayG9 He's talking about installing the web server, not deploying the application. Deploying an application can be done with 1-3 commands in _any_ language, since it has little to do with the language itself. All you need is a build or deployment script, which can be written in Bash or whatever. ~~~ phillmv I realize, but that too is a constant per platform. It's about the same amount of effort per web server per ecosystem, since in our we case we reverse proxy to the application server. If we're talking about shared hosting, that's a whole different ball game. ------ danielsju6 This is bullshit. I'm no fan boy but you can't blame yourself when you've cornered yourself in an complex case of interdependencies. BREAKING NEWS: OVER-ENGINEERED PIECE OF SOFTWARE IS REVEALED TO BE OVER-ENGINEERED. I don't use Refinery, Devise, OmniAuth, Unicorn, Rack Rewrite, Fog, AMQP, or Heroku. I use Passenger with Apache or Nginx, self-host, and write my own core functionality like authentication. Rails is still great at having an idea and throwing together a proof of concept in one day; running "rails s" still works out of the box. It still allows you to defer the hard choices, until you actually have to make them. If you've cornered yourself by making your stack too complex too early, that's your own damn fault—in Java you have to make those architecture choices day 1. Dynamic typing: if you treat Rails like Java, it acts like Java. ~~~ stuff4ben So what you're saying is you like to re-invent the wheel? Suffer from "not invented here" syndrome much? ~~~ gfodor No, what he's saying is that engineering is about tradeoffs. Adding another framework introduces another node in the graph, and n edges. If you don't need fancy authentication and are pretty confident you never will, then don't add devise. If you don't know or understand why you would use some bleeding edge web server or framework, use what is well-understood and has the least moving parts. ------ Skoofoo > Sure, Rails itself is straightforward, but the frameworks you slap on top of > it can quickly become burdensome abstractions: RefineryCMS, Devise, > Omniauth, Carrierwave, Unicorn, Rack Rewrite, Fog, New Relic, Foreman, AMQP, > and Honeybadger, not to mention the extra magic that Heroku gems throw into > the mix (backups and other fun). You don't need to use any of these. I once tried to use Devise for a project. I fiddled with it in an attempt to make it work exactly the way I wanted, but eventually I gave up and just rolled my own authentication. It's not hard at all to do in Rails, and you end up with much simpler code. I also tried New Relic, but I didn't see much point to it (maybe it's more useful for apps with a ton of traffic) and they sent me spam until I asked them to stop several times. ~~~ tmo9d But, Devise is one of the better frameworks out there. Along with Omniauth it saved a huge amount of work. I'd reconsider Devise and look at Omniauth, it is a huge time saver. New Relic is awesome, but expensive and they do have an aggressive marketing automation thing going on with the emails and such. But, you can't blame them for that, they have to pay the bills and more power to them for that. ~~~ Skoofoo I think it's a matter of personal taste. Devise is a pretty large library that deeply entrenches itself in your application and expects you to do things in a certain way. I personally don't think it's worth the added complexity, instead I prefer using standard Rails features [1] to build exactly what I want. But then, others may feel it's not worthwhile to even use Rails and instead prefer to use Sinatra or Flask. Every developer seems to have their own comfort zone in terms of how much control they have. For instance, Linus Torvalds won't even use C++ over C [2]. Omniauth looks like something I would use, though. As for New Relic, I certainly can blame them for spamming. I realize that everybody's gotta eat, but there is no excuse for them to send me "I wanted to connect regarding your interest in the New Relic trial. So far I have not been able to successfully reach you." after I already sent them two emails telling them to stop emailing me. Annoying anyone who hands over their email doesn't strike me as a particularly ethical business strategy. [1] [http://www.farbeyondprogramming.com/2011/05/rails-user- authe...](http://www.farbeyondprogramming.com/2011/05/rails-user- authentication-using-has_secure_password/) [2] <http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus> ------ squidsoup There's not a lot of content in this article frankly. I also suspect the author has either never been exposed to an 'enterprise' J2EE or Spring app, or has simply forgotten what a labyrinthine nightmare those could become. Rails is more complex today, but it is still significantly easier than traditional Java frameworks. ~~~ tmo9d I suspect that your suspicions are wrong because I wrote the article and I spend much of my day writing both Java and Ruby. I just find it easier these days to work with Spring 3. Why? Because the Spring and the Oracle folks reacted to Rails pretty quickly and came up with a lot of solutions that might surprise you. It takes just about the same LoC now to do in Spring what I'm doing in Java. The difference is that the performance in Java is much higher. ~~~ squidsoup An article comparing Spring 3 to Rails, enumerating some of those solutions, would have been more informative. ------ davidw Flame-bait title if I've ever seen one. Let's see an actual comparison with some numbers: * Lines of code, and number of tasks necessary to get a development environment set up. * Memory used with one client accessing the system, and with, say, 10 clients accessing it. * Some performance benchmarks. I keep my ear to the ground, and have used enough languages in my time that jumping to a new one isn't that big a deal, but I'm pretty happy with Rails and use it by default these days. It's a great way of getting something up and running quickly, while maintaining some order and sense of purpose to the code. It's what I'd use unless there are very clear reasons not to, such as huge scale requirements from the get-go, heavy involvement with web sockets or something like that where thinking a bit before coding is in order. ~~~ tmo9d You want that. Ok? I'm not sure you are going to like the results. But, if you want a follow up, I'll happily supply it. ~~~ davidw Rails is probably not going to do well in the performance department, but I think the other metrics would be interesting to see, and require actual research, rather than just whipping up an attention-gathering headline. ------ throwaway420 Particularly for small startups and self-funded projects, the most important factor in technology choice is almost always "How long does it take me to translate my idea into a working product?". For me, I haven't yet found anything that matches the ability of Rails to quickly go from just an idea into something that you can start pitching to customers. While Rails and the entire community is dizzyingly large, with rapid innovation, new libraries, and a new set of best practices seemingly every few months, this ability to quickly create stuff differentiates it from Java completely. ~~~ VeejayRampay Rails is just the sweet spot for low enough bar of entry, power and expressiveness. It also offers you a proven way to get up on your feet easily. But well, it's a fashion thing. People need new things, people need to kill the father, people need new chapels. Nevermind that what we have right now does the job perfectly and is lots of fun, we need something NEW. ~~~ tmo9d I don't know. I'm running a business on a Rails site and it's sort of sucking right now in terms of what I can get done and how fast I can get it done. Why? Because learning rails isn't the easiest thing in the world any more especially when half of the application is custom work around to jury-rig different frameworks together. One of the developers came to me just last week and showed me a POC in Java that was cleanly assembled, easy to understand, and lacked all the enterprisey stuff that scared me away from Java years ago. That's why I wrote the article. I'm not burning the chapel to build a new one. I'm setting sail for the fatherland in search of Silk and Spices. (I didn't mean to make sense with that ending, but you read it, didn't you?) ~~~ VeejayRampay It's surprising that you talk about "learning" Rails though. I am not an entrepreneur so take this is a shovelful of salt, but I wouldn't venture into creating a business on a technology that I have to learn along the way. Also, I am now confused that Rails is turning into Java, yet you recently saw a beautiful piece of Java. Rails is just like Java and its "darker" Enterprise Side ™, you get to pick and choose what you want to use, no one is forcing RefineryCMS and Devise and whatnot down your text editor :D ------ vampirechicken It's the age old set of trade-offs between buy and build. Build it all yourself and it takes forever, but you understand it all. Buy it from somebody else, and you get it quickly, but you're at their mercy for efficient understandable code. No language or framework is immune. Enjoy your java. ~~~ tmo9d I don't think it's the build vs. buy trade-off, I think it is more a question of efficient platforms for vendor collaboration resulting in the emergence of voluntary standards that create efficient and open markets kind of problem. Ruby has a DIY ethic which is respectable, but there's little infrastructure to support market-wide discussions throughout the ecosystem. Really, if you want to make analogies. Rails is essential loose federation covered under Articles of Confederation while Java is to be appreciated as a strong Federal system that allows for states to innovate. ------ t4nkd He's trading most of the simplicity for rich pre-rolled features. Building your own authorization/authentication and integrating with OAuth is pretty trivial, maybe a few hours if all you need is simply logging people in. Same with a CRUD CMS that'd replace refinery -- you're collecting complexity for a more rich feature set out of the box. Rack Rewrite isn't really that complex, though Carrierwave+Fog is a complexity layer, if Fog is anything like S3 you could just be posting directly to a REST api(adding complexity in client-side JS -- my favorite kind of complexity.) Unicorn is slightly more complicated to manage than Passenger, but, apparently you needed to serve fast clients and work on disk a lot? Well, can't be mad about what it buys you. Honeybadger, Foreman, and New Relic are pretty much DevOps burdens, you'd probably have some form or fashion of this complexity in any web-based app, ever. AMQP is a standard, most people would need a library to interact with it -- this is sort've akin to complaining that you need a library/gem for JSON. I wasn't even sure you needed heroku as a project dependency -- I though you just needed it locally because it acted like a CLI to their service. Also, Sinatra is it's own framework, having nothing to do with Rails. And it certainly wouldn't trade out a lot of the dependency complexity you're dealing with. Really, you traded simplicity for rich features out of the box. Hopefully you took the time to figure out if you actually _need_ those features before integrating them with your app. Also, Refinery's Engine architecture is kind've hair brained. (P.S. on chrome 24.0.1312.57 and Mountain Lion the dynamic length comment box on this blog is totally fucked.) ------ calinet6 "... Java, have you learned to easy yet?" No, it hasn't. That's why we're using Rails. And to be honest, it ain't that bad. ~~~ taligent "... Java, have you learned to easy yet?" Try Play, Grails, Vert.X. And you know what it isn't easy. Having to deal with Ruby's dependency nightmares. ~~~ spellboots Dependency management in ruby is trivial with bundler. ~~~ taligent For small, single apps sure. But if you have large apps with multiple Ruby versions then dealing with rvmrc, bundler and gem incompatibilities is a nightmare. Java's forward compatibility is a lot more robust. ~~~ jdminhbg You have an app with multiple Ruby versions? ~~~ taligent Yes. I take it you've never worked at an enterprise company before ? Every time a new developer comes on board they just love to add new technology X and then in the years to come other developers add Y and so on. Of course there are developers who have to manage this. ~~~ calinet6 Enterprise company? Ha. Just try dealing with three different decade-old JVM versions _once._ You'll pray for bundler. ------ javajosh Actually what's happening is that Rails is turning into MS Access. Access is a product that famously makes 80% of what you want to do incredibly easy, and the last 20% impossible. The Rails ecosystem is growing so that you can, essentially, deploy your own MS Access, with exactly the same trade-offs. ~~~ dasil003 This has got to be one of the worst analogies I've ever seen. One of Rails' core strengths is that it is written in Ruby which makes _anything_ , even batshit-insane dynamic runtime monkeypatching possible. Not that anyone would advocate doing that as a matter of course, but the point is nothing is out of reach in a Ruby app. ~~~ javajosh Rails has monkeypatching. Access has COM. Inbound developers will not be able to use either of these things because their skills and expectations have been set by that easy 80%. ~~~ danielsju6 Monkey-patching really? You're forgetting what else Rails has in our ecosystem: Github. 1.) Fork a project on Github, say the push notification gem <https://github.com/jpoz/APNS> 2.) Alter behavior in your branch <https://github.com/jamesdaniels/APNS> 3.) Optional bit, send a pull-request with your changes 4.) Vendor it or require your fork in the Gemfile: gem 'apns', :git => '[email protected]:jamesdaniels/APNS.git' Tada! ~~~ mtarnovan shortcut: gem 'apns', :github => 'jamesdaniels/APNS' ~~~ danielsju6 Nice. ------ lobster_johnson Sorry, but this article is bullshit. First of all, it's a classic appeal to emotion; it uses hyperbole that is propped up with emotions ("You’ll find yourself staring at incomprehensible mega-frameworks maintained by developers who are unapologetic about how little they care for writing documentation", etc) and not by concrete facts. It cleverly it uses two fictitious quotes to imply it represents real people's complaints, when it's in fact the author himself making up the supposed complaints. It also works up a strawman argument: That you can criticize Rails on the basis of a collection of frameworks that the OP apparently thinks are required to good apps. The fallacy here is that those frameworks are not needed, and their problems are not Rails' fault. Perhaps there is subculture of engine- loving Rails people out there that promote such frameworks, but I would not listen to them any more than I would listen to PHP devs. Rails is like any other tool: What you get out of it depends on how you use it. Judicious use of gems, libs, frameworks, databases etc. is just as important as managing your own application complexity. Sorry, but complexity is bad whatever language or framework or whatever you use. If Rails is an easy target it's probably because the apparent ease of implementation makes it tempting to grow your app. Here's a suggestion, a constructive suggestion: Try not to stuff you app with everything you can possibly think of. Login and user accounts? Belongs in a separate app. Document storage? Separate app. Image upload and scaling? Separate app. Email and SMS notifications? Separate app. Integration with external systems such that you feed data to, or from? Separate app. Computing scores or ranks or other statistics based on data? Separate app. And so on. Use a service-oriented architecture for everything, and you will reduce the complexity of each component to a bare mimimum. For example, we use Checkpoint [1] to integrate logins (FB, Twitter, Google) through a single system, so that our apps don't need to deal with API keys or OAuth or anything; performing login in an app using Checkpoint is literally a single line of code (a redirect). Instead of using a database, most data fits into Grove [2], a structured, hierarchical, indexed data store on top of a relational database. Instead of reinventing rating and voting systems for every app, we use Kudu [3], and instead of reinventing flagging of spam or illegal content for every app, we use Snitch [4] -- just to mention a few trivial examples. Our stable of mini-apps has much more, a small ecosystem of reusable, composable tools. By using HTTP as interface glue, we put an artificial limit on the ways that components can entangle themselves; for example, since the API deals entirely with basic JSON objects like arrays, strings and hashes, there are no surprises when you try to access the result of a call, since it will never re- enter its source (unlike, say, ActiveRecord associatons). [1] <https://github.com/bengler/checkpoint> [2] <https://github.com/bengler/grove> [3] <https://github.com/bengler/kudu> [4] <https://github.com/bengler/snitch> ~~~ tmo9d You are joking right, "Try not to stuff your app with everything you can possibly think of." Like providing a admin interface on Refinery as well as authentication with Devise is "everything and the kitchen sink". I think you may be trying to defend something. ~~~ grey-area Have you used Refinery? I have and wouldn't base an app on it, or even use it again for a CMS - frankly you could build the same admin features better in Rails in a couple of days, and tailor them properly to your application. Refinery is not a good model of a rails app and is probably the main reason for his problems or perception that Rails is heavy - it was a mistake to try to base an app on it and most of his gripes seem centered on that - there's a lesson there and it's not about Rails. Rails has become lighter with 3.x and will become lighter still with 4.x - they're dropping a lot of unnecessary stuff and trying to pare it down to the minimum - an admirable direction and quite the opposite to Java, which makes this article all the more baffling. Of course it's not the perfect framework and there are plenty of options, but the complaints of the article are histrionics. The laundry list of possible technologies in the article is absurd - RefineryCMS, Devise, Omniauth, Carrierwave, Unicorn, Rack Rewrite, Fog, New Relic, Foreman, AMQP, and Honeybadger, Heroku. You can get started with rails on a cheap VPS and serve your first few hundred thousand users with the following very simple stack: _Apache, Ruby, Passenger, Rails_. Setup is a few lines in your package manager of choice, writing the app is straightforward and requires none of the software above, maintenance is running aptitude update and bundle update now and then. Out of the stack above, Devise is quite a nice authentication solution and is the only one I'd recommend, but it's easy to roll your own, as to the rest of his list, if you don't need it, don't bother using it, none of it is required. ~~~ tmo9d "An admirable direction and quite the opposite of Java." What are you talking, specifics please? Is Java a framework with features comparable to Rails? Why is the laundry list of technologies absurd, these are the technologies that I run a business on. I think what's absurd is the level of reaction in your comment. Rails people now have this defensive reaction, and I've noticed it in person as well. It reminds me of the reaction of Java zealots in 2007. It really does. "Oh, really, you couldn't be serious, I mean it's absurd to think that Ruby...." It wasn't absurd to challenge, and neither is this challenge. ~~~ grey-area Firstly, apologies for the harsh tone and references in the 3rd person as I see from your other comments that you are the author of the article. _"An admirable direction and quite the opposite of Java." What are you talking, specifics please? Is Java a framework with features comparable to Rails?_ I admit this was sloppy wording, however your article is called 'Rails, You Have Turned into Java.' :) I was comparing Rails 4 (removes lots of features/bloat), with Java Frameworks which do not have a reputation for slimming down... Of course I'm sure there are some minimal Java web frameworks out there too (sorry not familiar with many). Your article is somewhat provocative and not representative of the experience of many with Rails so I wouldn't be surprised if you encounter a defensive reaction to this sort of sentiment. That's to be expected, as was the reaction of those using Java frameworks to DHH's blowhard rhetoric when he started out with Rails. _Why is the laundry list of technologies absurd, these are the technologies that I run a business on._ They're absurd as a criticism of Rails because many of them are completely external to Rails, not required to run a website/app, and some of them are not the right choices IMHO. Rails does not require any of these components to run websites even at scale. Sure some of them might be useful, but none are essential or intrinsic to Rails. Forgive me but I think the choice of RefineryCMS was a mistake, and if you back out of that mistake, you'd find Rails a lot more forgiving, a lot lighter, and a lot more suited to what you want to do if you're writing a large webapp with lots of components (or several interacting webapps). Problems with engines, subapps, conflicting routes etc are all based on this, and simply don't occur in most Rails apps. I've used it as a CMS for some clients and regret having done so in retrospect - it's not terrible standalone (also not great) but I can see how integrating it with an app would be a nightmare. You don't need to use meta-frameworks built on Rails to build an app, in fact I'd say it's a mistake, use a few discrete gems like devise, and just build what you want. ------ mark_l_watson I have to agree. I used to love rails in the beginning. I kept the source code to both Ruby 1.8.x and Rails (and Merb) easily available for browsing and it was all "understandable" at some level. Maybe it is just laziness but in the last few years I have used almost exclusively much simpler libraries/frameworks like Compojure/Noir and Sinara - and I have lost interest in seriously reading the source to these libraries. It seems better to have to write a little more code, but layer on top of much small libraries/frameworks. ------ primitur You know what has become the "Best Java" for me? Lua. With the LuaVM, you really can fulfill the absolute promise of 'write codebase once, run anywhere', where "anywhere = wherever you've got your LIBS+LuaVM host code running", of course. You can do it in a compact, highly performant manner. One host binary for each supported platform, much work at the vendor layer to adopt to a common Lua dictionary/table, and the rest is .. as they say .. fat city. All nice app case logic in a comfortable, friendly language. Java long ago become an unweildy beast replete with inane dependencies and insensitive amounts of hassle to get things in and out, whereas with the Lua stack, it seems, one need only know how to do things at least with a C stack, first, to gain immense benefit. I daily dream, in my idle moments, of a complete OS based on a selected set of normal/plain-ol' /usr/lib C-libraries, but booting directly to Lua, for GUI and all higher-layer goodness. Such fancies are already tickled in places like LOAD81 and MOAI, and so on, and I think sort of prove the point, a little, that the VM is no longer something a vendor controls, but rather .. the developer. ------ rzendacott As someone who is just now learning Rails, I'm loving it. Is this an actual issue that should push me away from the technology? What other technologies are there that streamline the development process as much as rails? ~~~ static_typed If you love constant patching for the daily critical security holes, stick with Rails. If you love worrying where they have stuck yet another Yaml parser, and where else they are eval-ing user supplied data, stick with Rails. If you prefer a bit of an easier, less-stressful life, there is hope with many of the Perl, Python and PHP frameworks. ~~~ squidsoup Like the Django patch that was released yesterday? (<https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2013/feb/19/security/>) The fact that the Rails team quickly responds to vulnerabilities should be reassuring not a disincentive to use the framework. All software is subject to vulnerabilities - the recent issues with YAML are a class of exploit common across many frameworks in different ecosystems (Django's TastyPie had a similar issue in the past). ~~~ static_typed Yes, Django took a solid step to properly fix the underlying issue, rather than apply many small sticky-plasters over several days instead, leaving the same basic vector open in the meantime. In fact, the Django issue reported was posted on HN yesterday and the comments on that posting underline what I just said here. Remember - Python for Pros, Ruby to pose. ~~~ slurgfest I'm a big Python fan but that closing remark is just an incredibly obnoxious thing to say and is only going to feed the Python haters ------ neya I think Rails is following the footprints of the Wordpress eco-system. The once 'blogging-only' platform has now matured into a complex, component based, 'also-a-do-it-yourself-CMS' with so much code that just makes it fragile. I'd love to see anyone write something custom based out of Wordpress and not have it automatically break in the next few updates. I believe this is the same case for Rails too. One day you would update your gems only to find out that something on your site (devise? Carrierwave??) would be broken. I guess, the best approach would be to make it modular - You know, write some custom classes and inherit them when you need them, instead of depending what the framework provides you 'out-of-the-box', of course not to the point of making the framework itself redundant. ------ axlerunner To answer the question...Yes, Java has changed for the better. Give it a go...you'll be impressed. ~~~ ef4 I actually had to write some Java recently for the first time in about ten years. I was hoping that the evolution of the language would make it less painful than it used to be. I was unimpressed. Generics are better than nothing, but still dramatically worse than having a reasonable syntax for anonymous closures. The newer iterator syntax is better than nothing, but still maddeningly lacking in the most basic type inference -- any compiler that can't infer the type of "thing" here is stupid: ArrayList<MyClass> list = this.buildList(); for (MyClass thing: list){ ... } The programmer is still forced to overspecify and manually convert between types like ArrayList<Thing> and Thing[], even though 95% of the time the difference has no impact worth thinking about. I could go on, but my point is that people like me who dislike Java dislike it for fundamental reasons. We're not going to be converted, because the changes we would demand would probably horrify Java's core audience. ~~~ taligent > even though 95% of the time the difference has no impact worth thinking > about. Because the 5% of the time matters when you have a language that needs to run on everything from mobile phones to supercomputers. I personally much prefer being explicit about what I want to happen. ~~~ jfb No non-trivial application ever, _ever_ been WORM. ------ geebee "Rails isn't the easy framework it once was..." I disagree. It's just as easy to set up a simple web app in Rails now as it was then. Rails may have grown in complexity, but it didn't add complexity to the easy thing. "Sure, Rails itself is straightforward, but the frameworks you slap on top of it can quickly become burdensome abstractions" I agree. However, I think it's so much easier to avoid these burdensome abstractions if you choose than it was in Spring when it first hit the scene. If you wanted to do something simple, I think it was far easier to write lower level servlet and jdbc code than to get spring mvc, hibernate, and some sort of build too (probably maven) all working together properly. There were some good efforts. There seemed to be some enthusiasm about Roo, though I didn't find the code generated by Roo anywhere near as easy to work with as Rails code. I thought Play looked promising, though it wasn't enough to get me back to Java once I'd built some momentum with Rails. A few people have commented that Spring 3 is excellent. It may very well be, and maybe I'll take a look some time, but to say I'm once bitten twice shy is to greatly undercount the number of times I was bitten. ~~~ tmo9d Spring 3 is excellent BTW. I originally started to blog about a Spring 3 application I wrote, but then it turned into this Rails rants. And, I don't hate Rails at all. Really. I don't. ~~~ geebee Definitely write the Spring 3 blog post! I can't get deep into it right now, but I'd be interested in an overview, especially from someone who uses Rails as well. ------ mping I still remeber reading some blog post comparing the stack trace of a spring/tomcat web app and a rails web app. Blah blah the rails web app stack was much nicer to read. Well, in 2012, the rails stack trace has become the tomcat's stack trace. It seems that if you really need to implement alot of abstractions on a webapp for generic pipe/filter, interception, routing, param parsing, session managemnt and such, you really do need some layers in your app! And I think it's funny that some of the Java-ey concepts that spring made so popular like IoC are beginning to appear in frameworks such as angular.js - this is not a critique, I think IoC is really clever. As for JSF, I actually like JSF2. It's really not everyone's cup of tea, but it's quite good for those boring LOB apps. Oh and it's view-first! I don't know why there aren't more view-first frameworks. The other ones I know of are Lift, WPF (kinda, never really used intensively), angular.js (has a view-first feel to it). Anyway, I still like rails, I just think they were a bit premature in judging the java camp... ------ cmbaus Couldn't be more timely for me. I've been working on documenting the Discourse installation. For someone who doesn't work in Ruby every day, even as a long time Linux user, it is daunting. Once an application, no matter the language, has a significant number of external dependencies deploying it becomes a challenge. ------ Legion Post title seems like it should be, "Refinery is a messy CMS". Seems like a good portion of these comments are comparing simple code written in (other-framework/language) with a big messy CMS written as an add-on for Rails. Hardly apples-to-apples comparisons, and only tangentially about Rails to begin with. ------ throwa Nobody wins by just using programming language Y or framework X. Product, features, design, execution etc is what make you wins. Facebook won in social- networking using php, some other social networks were build in Java and failed. Amazon won using Perl. Instagram used python/django and got acquired for a billion. Yammer used ruby/ rails and was acquired for 1.2 billion. In reality most companies are polyglot using different languages, tools and frameworks for different features in their stack. I am personally tied of unnecessary rants. There is no perfect programming language or framework. Abandon the notion that there's a "right framework," and just choose one and get hacking. ------ jscheel Ok, I get the complaint, and I understand and sympathize with the author. But just doing a simple search for "spring 3 hello world" was enough to remind me to stay away. ------ joedev You're doing it wrong! Do not slap frameworks and complexity on top of Rails. Rails' strength has been unchanged from day 1 - "favoring convention over configuration". Rails is for building web apps. 99% of the world's web apps will work fine with Rails, an RDMBS, a web server. That's about all you need. Anything else is probably just developers wanting to play with the latest toys. So yes, if you try to avoid Rails' conventions, you will have trouble. But it's not Rails' fault. ------ joedev Let me try another way. Some Rails apps that are too unwieldy are barely even Rails apps. They just happen to have Rails at some layer of the tech stack, but also have many other non-Rails components such that saying "Rails" has become too complex is disingenuous. ------ hnwh hope that means I have job options for another decade ------ static_typed Cheapshot: Rails HAS turned into Java, in so much both are riddled with security holes. Longer-term view: Rails mocked the Java web eco-system in the early days because it was 'Enterprise', and Rails was the scrappy upstart with magic commands to scaffold a blog in 5 mins and show screencasts to the world. This sold a lot of books (without it would Pragmatic Programmer have even had a book store?). Slowly, the rot set it, and the once light and nimble Rails become bloated as everyone added their pet features, their design pattersn (even though they would never call them that - that is _so_ Java!), and the too-many-cooks-in-the-code-kitchen sprinkling so much magic and syntactic sugar around the codebase it practically causes diabetes. Rails solved a problem for the company that wrote it. Since then people have been trying to shoe-horn it work with their business problem, and then found once they now have two problems. The rest of us moved on. ------ Amanda_Panda "RefineryCMS, Devise, Omniauth, Carrierwave, Unicorn, Rack Rewrite, Fog, New Relic, Foreman, AMQP, and Honeybadger, not to mention the extra magic that Heroku gems throw into the mix (backups and other fun)." Just going through all those names makes me tired. Its like framework names are to software as band names are to bands. ------ ExpiredLink Java is like a truck, Rails like a bicycle. Rails cannot turn into Java because it lacks the capabilities to turn into Java. ~~~ tmo9d No Java is like a Lepton and Rails is like a Neutrino. Neither interact with the Strong force. Got it?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Why are cheaper hosting services like OVH not very popular? - rgun We recently decided to move from AWS to OVH, primarily for saving money. We realized that the bulk of our AWS bill was made of EC2 and Data transfer costs. So, leaving S3, Cloudfront and SES, we moved everything away from AWS. The costs have become less than half.<p>My question is: <i>Why is OVH not as popular as AWS, Google Cloud or Azure among startups when it is so much more cheaper?</i>. I am aware of the following drawbacks of OVH:<p><pre><code> * No disk replication i.e unlike EBS or Google disk, if my disk fails, I am at the mercy of my backups (given no RAID) * No private network for all the servers by default. Unlike AWS security groups or Google Cloud private networks (which are setup by default), I will have to pay for vRack to setup a private network and is more complicated. * Decreased flexibility i.e I may not be able to spin up instances instantaneously or shut down instances to save costs in off peak times. </code></pre> These maybe big factors for large corporations but I think that a startup which starts with a small monolith (or a handful of services) and is focused on eventual profitability may benefit from using services like OVH.<p><i>Am I missing something here?</i><p>Also, please let me know of any better and cheaper services out there than OVH.<p>Edit: I would add that we have moved to OVH dedicated servers not VPS. ====== blfr OVH is massive and very popular _in Europe_ because it's a French company with datacentres primarily in Europe. Meanwhile AWS is popular with startups from Silicon Valley who set the tone for this site and startup culture in general. The other difference is that AWS has the first mover advantage in cloud services. OVH has always had the strongest presence in the dedicated server market and is only now catching up their OpenStack-based cloud offer. I very much enjoy access to raw hardware and use OVH a lot. Have you seen their new storage servers? These are basically hard drives attached to a calculator (ARM) with a NIC, amazing and I haven't seen anything like it elsewhere: [https://www.soyoustart.com/en/server- storage/](https://www.soyoustart.com/en/server-storage/) They also have a top notch DDoS protection that is not based on your wallet outlasting the attackers. ------ krn > I am aware of the following drawbacks of OVH: They are all false. OVH is a Public Cloud provider, just like AWS, GCP and Azure. > * No disk replication i.e unlike EBS or Google disk, if my disk fails, I am > at the mercy of my backups (given no RAID) [https://www.ovh.com/world/public-cloud/storage/additional- di...](https://www.ovh.com/world/public-cloud/storage/additional-disks/) > * No private network for all the servers by default. Unlike AWS security > groups or Google Cloud private networks (which are setup by default), I will > have to pay for vRack to setup a private network and is more complicated. [https://www.ovh.com/world/solutions/vrack/](https://www.ovh.com/world/solutions/vrack/) > * Decreased flexibility i.e I may not be able to spin up instances > instantaneously or shut down instances to save costs in off peak times. [https://www.ovh.com/world/public- cloud/instances/features/](https://www.ovh.com/world/public- cloud/instances/features/) ~~~ derefr You realize that you replied to a point saying "I will have to pay for vRack to setup a private network and is more complicated." with a link to vRack, right? ~~~ krn Right, because his claim is false. You can get up to 10 Gbps vRack for free, and it's included with Public Cloud. ~~~ rgun True. I failed to mention that I was talking about dedicated servers. In which case, the servers with vRack enabled are costlier. I did not check for their VPS offering. ~~~ krn That's true. But OVH provides a free private network with all public cloud instances, just like AWS and GCP. If we are comparing apples to apples. ------ dhnsmakala I think it is because many people's bill is not primarily in EC2. AWS, Google Cloud, and Azure's biggest value add come from managed services, like auto scaling databases and VMs. It makes it a lot easier for a small startup to build out their services without thinking about scaling challenges. Snapchat, for example, was built on google app engine and to this day has billions of dollars in contracts with Google Cloud. They scaled their app to millions of users remarkably well with what I hear was just 2 guys. No one does a startup because they expect it to stay small, so eating the upfront cost of using a managed service is a reasonable price to pay for peace of mind if things take off and the team can't keep up. Hiring people to manage infrastructure and do it well is likely more expensive in many scenarios. ~~~ tinalumfoil I'd be interested to see an analysis for a typical startup of when managing your own infrastructure becomes less expensive than managed services from cloud providers. I'd imagine it has to be pretty high considering most startups don't rush to leave AWS even after becoming massive. ~~~ tedivm Once a startup has seed funding it can typically get a ton of free credits from AWS using their "activate" program. Depending on the company this can be anywhere from $15k to $250k in AWS credits (although $100k seems to be the most common). [https://aws.amazon.com/activate/](https://aws.amazon.com/activate/) ------ Urgo Before moving to GCP we actually did experiment with putting some of our services on a VPS at OVH as well as other providers to see how well they would handle our traffic. The issue we had with OVH specifically was that whenever traffic got high they thought there was an attack in place and automatic firewalls went up that took us down for hours at a time. Upon contacting support we were told "After looking into the matter, it would seem that our VPS do not have a profile that would accomodate your traffic spikes" We've never had an issue like this after moving to GCP. ~~~ krn You should have used OVH Public Cloud[1] (= AWS EC2), not OVH VPS (limited to 100 Mpbs). [1] [https://www.ovh.com/world/public- cloud/instances/prices/](https://www.ovh.com/world/public- cloud/instances/prices/) ~~~ martin-adams You would think OVH would have said that if they wanted the business ~~~ krn The thing with OVH is, that it's a fully automated service with a very basic level of support. There is no hand-holding. They expect you to read the docs yourself. ~~~ StevenLeRoux Disclamer: working at OVH. both right and wrong. Yes we provide fully automated services and it's out goal. We have three levels of service support. One that is free (hotline, email, social, ...) and one where you can subscribe VIP support, and one where you can have a dedicated technical account manager. (Maybe we're not good at communicating) For this example, if there is an issue with a DDoS profile, we are able to adjust it given you're workload. Most common use cases are not causing issues. Keep in mind that a "VPS" is not really something you should use for business because it has shared resources and very small sizing. This is probably why your workload was identified as suspicious on the DDoS side. Instead you should pick a cloud instance : more sizing choices and dedicated resources. ~~~ krn > Keep in mind that a "VPS" is not really something you should use for > business because it has shared resources and very small sizing. That's exactly what I meant. The problem is, that people expect OVH VPS to be a direct alternative to Linode, DigitalOcean, and Vultr – when it's not. And the free support service doesn't always make this clear enough to the users. It only becomes clear, when you read the docs yourself. ------ rossdavidh There are all kinds of good and valid business reasons why, and all kinds of good and perhaps valid counterarguments to those reasons. None of which are the real answer. The real answer is that the CEO/CTO/CxO doesn't want to have to think about these things, or getting expertise in-house for these things. They want it to be like electricity or water; something they have to pay for, but don't have to think about. Whether or not that's what really happens is irrelevant; it's what they think will happen, and to be honest it is what often happens. Even if they're paying more $$, they paying less in mental bandwidth, and never have to worry about whether they have (retained or retrained) sufficient in-house talent to maintain it. That's the real reason. ~~~ mlthoughts2018 This is effectively false because you just shift the burden of understanding infrastructure intricacies from a nominal infra team to a bunch of fractured developer teams, and they often have fight through idiot org-wide cloud policies to get anything done. Whatever you think you save by not having to hire or retrain AWS expertise on a nominal infra team, you lose far more by now needing to hire web developers, database engineers, machine learning engineers, mobile developers, etc., that are not just very good in their particular application domain, but also competent to operate self-service AWS tooling in an optimal way, despite having to contort around and fight with org-wide cloud policies that inhibit them for no actual cost, security, uniformity, or other benefit. What I mean specifically is that there is not even a reason to _think that_ shifting to managed services with a cloud provider will allow you to cut costs in IT workforce or “not think about it” like you say. It’s just marketing snake oil that CTOs continue to believe this sort of thing at all. ~~~ rossdavidh It is entirely possible that you are just shifting the problem around to a place where it is less visible. Answer to the original question would still be the same. But, fwiw, I think you may sometimes be correct, especially since Amazon's flotilla of services is ever-expanding, resulting in having to know just as much as before, just for a proprietary domain. One is reminded of how corporations get talked into putting their businesses into SAP-world, and then discover that they need to hire SAP specialists to run it. ------ CM30 I'm gonna say overly high expectations probably have an effect here. As you said, these things aren't necessary for a startup with a small amount of users, but... very few startups seem to realise that, or consider that they won't become the next Google or Facebook overnight. So services like OVH aren't as popular as AWS because startups always buy on the assumption they'll suddenly hit it big, even if their needs are more modest. It could also come down to branding too; AWS and Google Cloud and Azure have done a lot of marketing in order to get themselves out there in front of the startup crowd, with whole conferences and events on how to use them. Hence some people are likely using them because it's 'the thing startups do'. ------ gnopgnip AWS, GCE and Azure solve problems that OVH, Hetzner, Online.net etc do not. For many businesses there is a lot of value here. Some of it is because the businesses do not spend that much on server hosting, some because the problems that AWS solves are very valuable. If you do want to use a bare metal provider like OVH, keep in mind the differences from a service like EC2. You have physical disks. So you either need to implement network storage, or raid, to improve reliability and uptime, or make your software tolerant of data loss. Restoring a bare metal server from a backup has some considerations that a virtual server will not. You also have physical memory, cpus, nics, but in practice these do not fail often. Other areas of the infrastructure are less redundant or reliable because they are a budget provider. You do not have nearly as many physical locations to choose from. A lot of older businesses are used to buying servers and collocating them instead of renting the whole server and could be saving a lot of money. Or businesses that insist that everything is on prem and never consider the whole cost of power, cooling, security, and connectivity. There are a lot of newer businesses that never really considered something like OVH because they started in AWS, and have only ever considered services like EC2 and competing VPS services, and not bare metal providers like OVH. You also have businesses that know that OVH etc is cheaper, but want to use some new thing for other reasons. It could be to improve their resume, or because this is what investors expect, or because this is what they think the companies that will eventually acquire them will want. ------ goatherders OVH is not typically seen as a big provider in the US but has a nice euro footprint. So some of it is branding and marketing. I used to work with most of the American leadership at OVH and know for a fact that they view the next couple years as an opportunity to become one of the key cloud providers in the us (along with the big 3). They see themselves as every bit as technically strong, just need to market better. ------ zegl Because EC2 is not the only service that you'll use. Having services such as SQS, RDS, EBS, and Route53 all available and integrated into the VPC and access controlled via IAM is incredibly valuable. External tools such as Terraform and Kubernetes already supports AWS. For smaller hosting providers this is usually not the case. ------ jtokoph The big cloud providers all give a massive amount of credits for startups to use. Massive meaning multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it’s easy for startups to hop on for the free credits and a couple years later be too busy on product cycles to make time for a move. The “lock-in” is strong. ~~~ rgun We did receive large amounts of AWS and Google cloud credits. I did not mention in the question for brevity, but we moved to Google Cloud (GCP) after exhausting AWS credits to utilise GCP credits. We came to know of OVH a couple of months back and having burnt through our GCP credits, we are again making a switch. ~~~ dhnsmakala How much did you receive, on the order of $10k or on the order of $100k? If it's really that easy to switch for y'all that you can be doing it to save money in cloud expenses, then either you really are best off with something like OVS/renting servers in some facility. ~~~ rgun In the tune of $10k. We also came to the same conclusion. Moreover, being an Indian startup, these dollar bills are burning a huge hole in our pocket :D ~~~ dhnsmakala Took a look at Provakil and it seems interesting. May I ask how much a typical engineer startup salary is in India? I had heard they got pretty high with all the US companies opening offices there (like 50-60k USD+) ------ tgsovlerkhgsel I host some (personal/hobby) stuff on Scaleway. It's _dirt_ cheap (a couple bucks a month for a Tor node pushing ~100 Mbps) and I like them, but they often have stockouts (can't start any new servers because they're out of servers, IPs, or some other resource) or other reliability issues (e.g. a server taking forever to start/stop). I can highly recommend them for hobby stuff, but wouldn't dare to use them for something that will cost me my livelihood if it goes down for a week. I've heard various horror stories about OVH in terms of internal network reliability, but that was 5+ years ago. Other reasons: * The managed services (starting with the various file storage solutions, but extending to databases etc.) * The list prices you see on the web site may not be the prices bigger companies actually pay. * It's easier to find people who know how to use them, or tools that work with them. * Possibly better service (if you have the appropriate plan - running your prod on a cloud provider without a service plan is a good idea until shit hits the fan, and a bad and possibly company-ending idea once that happens). ------ tuxidomasx Personally, the 'free tiers' offered by the big PAAS and cloud providers are good enough for small projects and MVPs-- can't beat free. If and when extra resources are needed, it's usually easier to just start paying at that point rather than to switch platforms entirely. Free tiers are are extremely effective (albeit crafty) in a "the-first-one-is- on-the-house" kinda way. ------ berns > Edit: I would add that we have moved to OVH dedicated servers not VPS. This invalidates your other points. Your question actually is why are dedicated servers providers not as popular as cloud providers among startups. And I'm sure you'll come with the answer yourself. ~~~ rgun Can you please elaborate? (Apart from the points I have already mentioned) ------ whitepoplar For me, it's how the hosting provider handles stuff when things go wrong: \- How reliable are their datacenters? \- Do their servers use good hardware? e.g. Hetzner is known to replace HDs on their budget servers with used HDs that have been "retested." Whatever it is, they fail more often than HDs at other hosts. \- Do they have organized procedures I can bet my business on? (DDoS response, hardware failure, power failure, network failure) \- Do they have a dedicated security team? \- Do they have professional, knowledgeable support? Low cost providers are typically lacking, IMO. When shit hits the fan and I need top-notch, professional support at 2am, can I get it? To me, the only budget host that seems on par with the bigger companies is DigitalOcean. ~~~ cvandebroek We are running our services with Hetzner for years now. The less critical things run on low budget servers, for which we don't care too much if they break (everything is redundant - however, we had one hdd crash in 6 years). The real important things run on dedicated server hardware. While these servers are more costly, they also are more powerful and unbelievably cheaper than AWS and alike. I admit we do have dedicated people to work with our servers, but I can't imagine that other companies running on AWS don't have sysadmins to take care of their business critical services. As for the support: It's always a question on how much you are willing to pay. Cloud services provide almost nothing unless you sign up for a dedicated support plan. We do have this with Hetzner, too. In case shit hits the fan, we can call them 24/7 (luckily this was never needed). ------ blibble their website is awful, when I last paid them they still didn't do recurring billing, so for each service (i.e. virtual machine) you have to remember pay them monthly for each VM, each month or you pay annually... then if one of your VMs dies good luck getting their CS to do anything about it (or even ever finding out why) ~~~ nik736 First part is not true for their cloud offerings, I think it was only for their cheap brands like Kimsufi and SoYouStart. If your VM dies you are better off spawning a new one and migrate to the new one. ------ cik The reality is that they solve very different things. Part of what you're getting with AWS, GCP, Azure (DO, etc) is API support, and a big set of features. I view the big ones as a PaaS, and 'smaller' players as IaaS. Ultimately IMHO selecting a provider is either a risk mitigation strategy. OVH in particular is really just phenomenal for dedicated hardware at a very reasonable price. They deploy very quickly (anywhere from 3 minutes to 48 hours, depending), and I've always found them _INCREDIBLE_ to deal with - the last 4 years. Prior to that, when they were the go-to host for lowendwebhosting/cheapwebhost/lowendbox/etc they were a 'best of luck' provider. And that caused grief for many a friend / startup / client. There's really a risk/reward difference. With AWS and friends, I'm getting incredible scale. With OVH and friends I'm getting tremendous disk space, processing power, but the scaling can be at best a PITA. Ultimately I'm a big fan of physical to cloud bursting - if that's your need. Monitor your environment from a third party and use that to orchestrate your cloud-bursting strategy if necessary. It's fairly easy to do, if not a tiny bit time consuming. ~~~ nik736 That's simply not true. OVH launched their cloud lineup years ago with locations everywhere around the globe. Sure, you get bare metal servers, but similar to EC2 you also get your "cloud" machines that are spawned within seconds via their API. ~~~ cik They have their instances, sure but that's different than being a PaaS. It's about more than just compute now. When it's not then commodity is commodity, like Atlantic and Viper - they both have Api supports. ~~~ nik736 You mentioned DO, how is DO a PaaS service? ~~~ cik Agreed - DO isn't a PaaS. That's was silly of me. ------ tilo Did you use spot instances when possible? Did you use autoscaling to keep your instance count as small as possible? These could be reasons why your costs were so high. Another reason why companies use AWS is that it allows them to move faster. If you're afraid of lock-in and want to build everything yourself then yes, AWS will be damn expensive. But if you use the services they provide, you can build things pretty quickly without much workforce. ------ gregoriol Managing your own servers instead of managed services is hard! It requires admin skills in addition to dev skills on your team, gets seriously hard with increasing levels of security, makes planning and spikes much harder, ... but can also be highly rewarding in terms of costs, mastering your environment, optimization and dev quality, ... The choice is mostly about how much time and will you have or plan to have on your team for it. You'll have to handle files and database replications, you'll have to update the systems (with reboots), you'll have to fix very tricky issues, ... that would have been handled otherwise. OVH (and some others like Online.net) have great products with amazing pricings. I have seen a few startups relying on many of their (rather small) servers and it was all great. One thing to remember is that human time costs much higher than cloud time. ------ leevlad To add to many other valid points others have provided, OVH is a discount provider and they use second-hand / refurbished hardware at their data centers to keep costs low. I used to manage hundreds of servers on OVH and found that their hardware failed much more frequently than even us-east-1 on EC2. Most common issues were memory and disk related failures. A few times, their techs tripped over a power cord that took a few of our racks down, and they used to have frequent issues with network connectivity (I believe it's gotten better since). On top of it, you will find that they cut costs on some of the less obvious things. For example, one day we found that their vRacks are not redundant, so a failure in one of them caused hours of downtime of our intranet. As far as customer support - our account manager was always very helpful and understanding. ~~~ krn > they use second-hand / refurbished hardware at their data centers OVH manufactures its own servers in France[1]. That's as "first-hand", as it can be. [1] [https://twitter.com/olesovhcom/status/1009539890005118976](https://twitter.com/olesovhcom/status/1009539890005118976) ------ gesman OVH' stance is "we keep our customer support shitty to keep our prices low". This is hit-and-miss marketing strategy that works for some, but not for others. I use them but tbh I miss quality, responsive customer support when things gets bad. ------ guitarbill AWS/GC/Azure have many different services well-known APIs/SKDs, which are like Lego to build products quickly. So if all you need is hosting for a webapp, you aren't taking full advantage of the offering. Then providers like DigitalOcean/Linode/OVH can definitely make sense. Heroku isn't quite like either of these, but another option if you want even less ops work. Anyway, those legos also give you a certain future-proofing. Even with normal growth, it's easy to outgrow environments, and provider migrations/cross- provider apps are a pain. ------ oddx I don't have answer to you question, just a few notes about another low cost proder - Hetzner: * They have RAID by default * They have private network included now (vSwitch) Drawbacks from my expirience: * You have to monitor hardware by yourself (SMART, CPU and HDD temperature) and requests checks if you suspect hardware failure * Decreased flexibility (curretly Hetzner have limited cloud support, but it's very limited). Probably doesn't matter for most startups. * More manual work for administration (provided services are more low level) ------ codingdave AWS may be the most flexible option out there. And if you need flexibility, that matters. But If you are more established, without changing needs, and can define exactly what yhose needs are, other vendors often will be cheaper. Startups therefore like AWS - they have too many unknowns. (And too many "don't know what they don't know" factors). More established, mature organizations have more of an option to lose flexibility in exchange for a lower cost. ------ jotm I don't know about nowadays, but 4 years ago, God forbid you did anything against OVH rules (which apparently included running a mailing list), you'd get your whole account suspended and access to all your servers frozen. They also really took their time to reply (2 days with inaccessible websites? Insane). Hardware problems? We feel bad for you son, wait a week maybe we'll look into it. But it was _really_ cheap. Fast forward to today, never again. ------ em-bee i guess it depends on how you start developing. our service was developed on local servers several years ago and then moved to OVH for hosting. eventually we managed to break up the server into multiple (LXC) containers. maybe in the future we may move some services to docker or to the OVH cloud. since this is mainly a hardware business not a lot of work is being invested into software development. mainly maintenance and scale for more users (which is solved by getting beefier servers). we also have 20TB of customer data that we need to store. dedicated OVH disk servers cost a lot less than a managed NAS. there may be other options, but i doubt we could take advantage of those without rewriting the applications. a change like that would be very costly. but now consider the other side: if you start developing on AWS, how likely is it going to be that you'll move to dedicated servers that you need to manage yourself? it's very expensive to make that kind of switch and only worth it if AWS turns out to be inadequate in a serious way. greetings, eMBee. ------ appdrag I left OVH years ago after several outages (network, electricity and sometimes hardware failures) Also the OVH support was between horrible to nonexistent. All our servers went to AWS, cost more money for the hosting but a lot less in staff and no more downtimes since years! If you have serious workload and critical systems to run OVH is a joke ~~~ lowry Why not Hetzner or Leaseweb or Rackspace? There are lots of choice among big EU-based bare metal hosting services. ------ StevenLeRoux Disclamer : working at OVH ;) Few points come to my mind : * Price versus popularity Being cheaper is not our drive value. If we wanted to be the cheapest, we would miss our mission to provide a world class infrastructure that you can rely on to build your own business. We wouldn't have one of the best anti ddos solution and we wouldn't be recognized as one of the most performant Cloud provider. ( [https://cloudspectator.com/reports/2017-Cloud-Spectator- EU-R...](https://cloudspectator.com/reports/2017-Cloud-Spectator-EU- Report-05-09-17.pdf?submissionGuid=db7316d6-8a46-4b5b-85e2-0feb0bf570b5) ). I'd rather say that our services are more "fair prices" than "cheap prices". Fair prices, being lower than US market, many customers tend to think that the value isn't the same (see cloud spectator link above). If your price isn't considered credible, you won't be at the table not because of your price, but because of the market range that customer are looking for. Range is defining both min and max, and as hard as it can be, there is a minimum value that customers want to put money into. Popularity is also something that you work on the long run. OVH is very famous in EU, because... it's will be ~20years (next year) that we've been here starting from web hosting and baremetal, then accompany our customers in their growing needs. This year, we've just opened our 2 first US datacenters, and launched a beta offering with baremetal, Hosted private cloud (VMWare), and Public Cloud (OpenStack). Popularity will come with more people testing our services :) * IaaS / PaaS / SaaS in an open world We also provide managed services like databases, Observability, Object Storage, K8S, etc. Some may not be available in US for now but it will be. We work with many startups, and we also have a Startup program called Digital Launch Pad : [https://www.ovh.com/world/dlp/](https://www.ovh.com/world/dlp/) At least in EU, many startups now know this program. I guess it's popular :) A very big difference is how we provide the service and the lock-in policy. We want our customer to use our service for the value we provide and not because they're too tied to go elsewhere. Aside from a fair pricing, it's fair business. It means there are no hidden cost, bandwidth is included with the service, and PaaS/SaaS services offer well known (or standard if possible) APIs. For example, our observability solution provide protocols abstraction with many popular API : OpenTSDB, Warp10, Prometheus, InfluxDB, Graphite, ... Customers can push datapoints with a protocol and query with another one. This is this kind of openness we want to create. Repeat the same with everything else : Compute (Nova, EC2, ...), Object Storage (Swift, S3), Pubsub (HTTP, Kafka, ...). We're seeing more and more companies that, like you, are fed-up with lock-in solutions or extravagant pricing policies, and are moving to providers like us. Thank you for your comment and let's make (profitable ;) ) business together! ------ busterarm IAM and the various sdks/aws cli are worth the price alone. ------ closeparen Latency to Europe is a non-starter for US companies. ~~~ JeanMarcS They got data centers in North America you know. Canada and US. ------ MrStonedOne AWS and GCE and the like aren't selling vpses, or dedicated servers, or even cloud services. They are selling 9s of uptime. And for the amount of 9s you get, it is the cheapest way to get it. ------ zenexer I use both OVH and AWS extensively, and have done so for quite a while. OVH is actually quite popular; they're big enough to have their own TLD, which says something about the quantity of money they have just sitting around. There are a few big issues that I have with OVH, all of which keep me from moving my most critical infrastructure there: * Their support is very hit-or-miss. Sometimes they're great; other times, you'll be stuck with a dead disk that they're not willing to replace, for whatever reason. Sometimes they swap out the wrong disk. Sometimes they just screw up your server for seemingly no good reason. * Behind-the-scenes, they operate mostly in French. I don't speak French. Not many of the people I work with are fluent in French. But whenever you hit an edge case, or some unusual part of the interface, or really, anything off the beaten trail, the message is going to be in French. Error messages? French. Recovery prompts? French. Important status announcements? Quite often French. * Not a single US datacenter--which, being a US company, is a bit annoying. * The Canada datacenter, the only one close to our physical location, has serious network issues far too often. Once every couple years, their network will just... die. There's always a good reason, but excuses don't keep my customers happy. Maybe construction was taking place nearby and someone busted a fiber line, while the other line was down for maintenance. Whatever the reason, it ends up down for unacceptably long periods of time. I still have nightmares about the last time it was down for what felt like a whole day, but was probably more like 12 hours (so much better, I know). They keep insisting they're improving their peering. Apparently they have a lot of trouble getting permits to run lines across the US - CA border. In the time it took them to get those permits, they could've built a whole new datacenter in the US to completely mitigate the issue. It's not like they don't have the money. But they keep saying it's getting better. It's not going to happen again. Everything's fixed. More peering, more connections. But it Keeps. Happening. I've seen more reliable hosting providers that are an order of magnitude smaller--it's beyond the point of ridicule. * Until very recently, their billing was a joke. There was no way to automatically pay invoices; each month, you had to pay everything manually--which wouldn't have been so bad if the interface were less buggy and confusing. They added automated payments but didn't fix the interface, so everything works great until it doesn't. But they're cheap so we plop some failover infrastructure there and pray we never have to use it. Edit: I should probably note that if we were building our primary infrastructure on OVH, it would probably actually be more expensive because of the increase in man-hours we'd have to spend managing it ourselves, even if we used their cloud services. It's been a long time since we crunched the numbers on this one, but last we checked, AWS won hands down, no contest. ------ sixhobbits I've tried to some extent or another most of the cloud providers. What keeps me going back to AWS for my own needs and when I'm working with startups or larger companies. * Free tier - you can't beat free for very small companies, and you can scale a t2.micro surprisingly well. * Credits - it's pretty easy for startups to get $5-20k in credits for a 1-2 years. This is a great time to fire up a couple of EC2 instances, some RDS instances, CDN, auto backups, monitoring, etc etc. You don't have to worry about costs so you can always have duplicate dev, staging, prod environments. If you're still worried about budget in two years when the credits run out, you can scale down pretty easily -- hopefully at that time you're ready to scale up rather, and if you need the extra functionality it's right there instead of migrating clouds. * SDK support - AWS command line tools, Python (boto), Java, and pretty much any language you need can integrate really easily with most of AWS. * Documentation - it's not great, but there's a lot of it. You can find the official documentation on how to integrate the various services together, and best practices for security and scaling them, plus a gazillion third party tutorials that you can follow line by line or download third-party libraries if you need to do something in a hurry. * Support - even on the free tier where they don't officially offer it, the giants have incentive to provide really good technical support to help you spend more money with them. * Experience - you can find more developers and other technical and non-technical people who are used to the AWS console and terminology. * Region support - even here in South Africa I can have an edge location for my CDN. Hoping for an actual data centre here too in the near future. * Versatility - whether I want to scale a web app, or fire up a quick P2 GPU instance to try out some image classification, I can use the same interface and toolset. If I suddenly want to view my Apache logs in the cloud, I can send them to the same dashboard as my heartbeat alarms in <1h of set up time. * Performance - I won't go find them now, but there are a lot of benchmark blog posts out there showing how the smaller providers sometimes cut costs by using more shared hardware than they make obvious from their marketing - not all cores are equal and for sustained usage, AWS does a pretty good job of being predictable. * Security - IAM is useful. S3 has sane defaults (now) which make it very hard to accidentally make data public. EC2 instances come with all the ports closed and you have to manually open the ones you want. Maybe I sound like I'm trying to shill AWS (I did work for them a few years ago), but it's honestly one of the products I am happy to pay for. They've done a great job. GCE is really fantastic to use too, and Azure to a lesser extent. I still keep around a couple of Digital Ocean instances because I'm too lazy to migrate them anywhere and I love the simplicity of the platform and a Scaleway one because it's EUR2.99/month and it's useful to have a box that's just there to play with when I need it. ------ patrickg_zill AWS is the new "nobody has ever been fired for buying"... Further, given that having AWS experience is valuable, both the non-technical and the technical people are incentivized to use it. ~~~ apple4ever Never thought about it like that, but you are exactly right. ------ matkins OVH support is atrocious. If you have a problem, fasten your seatbelt. ------ lowry OVH is probably a bad example, they targeted mostly French and East Europeans willing to setup file sharing among friends. They are still rebooting your servers if you happen to block ICMP requests, in an attempt to bring them back to live. Yes, they diversified, but the spirit stayed. Hetzner is much more professional, they targeted big file sharers and the porn industry from the inception. ~~~ StevenLeRoux You can disable the ovh monitoring from your manager.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Functional programming on Perl 5 - pflanze http://functional-perl.org/ ====== pflanze I'm the author. I have just released the first alpha. I've been programming Scheme for close to a decade now after about the same amount of time using Perl, and I've written this to be able to like programming Perl 5 again, when I have reason to use it. It works pretty well for me for that purpose, although I guess I'm biased. I guess the layout is pretty old-fashioned, and I might have too much text; I'm trying to cater to people who are not used to functional programming yet, but I'm not sure I'm achieving that. I guess it's also a rather difficult sell when many Perlers prefer to use the upcoming Perl 6 instead, and others decide to leave for a more proper functional programming language implementation. I'm rather proud that I've managed to base lazy sequences on lazily evaluated linked lists, i.e. based on purely functional principles down to the cells, instead of using iterators as many function libraries for sequences for non- functional languages (like JavaScript or C#) do. Not sure how much it matters in practice, but at least you can write lazy sequences with this the same way you do in Haskell (see fibs and primes examples). There are some good points doing FP in Perl 5 compared to some other non-FP languages (you can do optimized tail-calls pretty cleanly), and some bad points (you have to care about memory handling in some places). I've got ideas how to improve on both fronts but that will depend on the uptake of the project. ~~~ Mithaldu > I guess it's also a rather difficult sell when many Perlers prefer to use > the upcoming Perl 6 instead That is definitely not a thing. Also, i recommend putting it on cpan. It's perfectly fine to put alpha modules on there. ~~~ pflanze Ok, I'll look into that. ------ tbirdz Another interesting book in this same functional perl genre is Higher Order Perl, available free online here: [http://hop.perl.plover.com/](http://hop.perl.plover.com/) Edit: I see now that it was mentioned on the page. Consider this comment another recommendation then. If you are interested in perl and functional programming, check this book out! ------ supster General question: what are some pros and cons of Perl compared to other languages like Python, Ruby, Java, Clojure, Haskell? What makes Perl unique and people so enthusiastic about it? ~~~ vezzy-fnord It reifies the process of munging and pattern matching on text streams in a way few other dynamic languages do. Perl 6 particularly so with grammars (similar to lex) as a first-class construct. It's more appropriate to compare it to SNOBOL and AWK. ~~~ latenightcoding Yeah let's compare Perl with AWK lol ~~~ Mithaldu You may find it funny, but one of the motivators for Perl being made was to get a better awk, which is why it's highly compatible with awk syntax.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
From Anxieties to Actionable and Measurable 2014 Resolutions - randomdrake http://randomdrake.com/2014/01/02/destroying-personal-anxiety-from-anxieties-to-actionable-and-measurable-2014-resolutions/ ====== gwb3 nice, well-organized and thought-out post :)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
iPhone 6s Smart Battery Case - weisser http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MGQM2LL/A/iphone-6s-smart-battery-case-white?fnode=edf71393319294bfab1f075ee9cb9f5c06256817f3890d6dd45516f33fd74e1a2181fd202d934c080ff0ab7a78322eef72d18391b826487da8d129a6608634216fb46514df03452215e94bf886b063854d6a07c063cee2513c02a5ee0bf16a58 ====== DrScump [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10695695](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10695695)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }

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