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Even if most of the hostages have been killed, the bodies need to come home. No one left behind. That said, to think of the prisoners released because of this, but hopefully this finally leads to the end of the Mardyr fund.
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2024-31-05
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If it's an Israeli proposal, how would announcing it be twisting Israel's arm?
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2024-31-05
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If Biden could have so easily stopped October 7th, why didn't Netanyahu? They have one of the most well-equipped militaries in the world. Why would Biden have the knowledge that he should have boots on the ground at an Israeli music festival, when the very president of that country didn't think to do so?
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2024-31-05
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If this deal is accepted i wonder what happens to the remaining military aid that was given by the US.
[House okays $17 billion in military aid for Israel under major spending package](https://www.timesofisrael.com/house-approves-26-billion-in-aid-for-israel-and-gaza-under-major-spending-package/)
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2024-31-05
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And the US and Israel were both completely betrayed by Egypt, who had their own side-negotiations going on and lied to everyone else about what they were showing Hamas.
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2024-31-05
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this has to be the worst deal ever made in a war, if israel goes through with this they have basically lost the war and the 7 months of fighting and deaths were all for nothing, i can´t believe biden is a world leader, he would never make this deal for the US
"The first phase would last for six weeks ... \[and\] would include a full and complete cease-fire, withdrawal of Israeli forces from all populated areas of Gaza, the release of a number of hostages, including women, the elderly, the wounded, in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners," Biden said.
"Then phase two would be in exchange for the release of all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, Israeli forces, with withdrawal from Gaza – and as long as Hamas lives up to its commitments, a temporary cease-fire would become, in the words of the Israeli proposal, a cessation of hostilities permanently," Biden continued.
Phase three would encompass "a major reconstruction plan for Gaza," according to Biden, as well as the repatriation of the remains of deceased hostages to their families. "The people of Israel should know they can make this offer without any further risk to their own security, because they've devastated Hamas over the past eight months."
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2024-31-05
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[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostage-deal-netanyahu-polls-families-rcna154841](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostage-deal-netanyahu-polls-families-rcna154841)
Netanyahu didn't want peace earlier since polls didn't agree with it.
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2024-31-05
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Hamas doesn't even know where the hostages are...
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2024-31-05
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the deal says nothing about alive hostages, it´s actually the worst deal i have ever seen, it doesn´t even demand the immediate release of all alive hostages, honestly biden would never make this deal for the us if these were his hostages
"The first phase would last for six weeks ... \[and\] would include a full and complete cease-fire, withdrawal of Israeli forces from all populated areas of Gaza, the release of a number of hostages, including women, the elderly, the wounded, in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners," Biden said.
"Then phase two would be in exchange for the release of all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, Israeli forces, with withdrawal from Gaza – and as long as Hamas lives up to its commitments, a temporary cease-fire would become, in the words of the Israeli proposal, a cessation of hostilities permanently," Biden continued.
Phase three would encompass "a major reconstruction plan for Gaza," according to Biden, as well as the repatriation of the remains of deceased hostages to their families. "The people of Israel should know they can make this offer without any further risk to their own security, because they've devastated Hamas over the past eight months."
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2024-31-05
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>There were a lot of things the US strongly advised Israel to do which they ignored
Antony Blinken has been on the wrong side of virtually every foreign policy event he's ever been a part of. Why in the fuck would they listen to anything he's suggesting, anyway?
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2024-31-05
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No he didn't say that whatsoever. He didn't say anything that made any sense.
OP said last time will be like this time which will be like last time.
Nonsense basically
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2024-31-05
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Well if I am it would be so easy for you to disprove it with actual sources. Very strange that you haven't hmm
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2024-31-05
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This is the first time that Israel has even gotten pressure from the US. They claim they don’t care but everyone knows that’s not true. US wants this to end to score a moral victory before the election. Hamas will always break a ceasefire, but Israel needs US support, US needs this to end before election seasons, which probably isn’t what Israel wants as republicans would give Israel everything they need to wipe out Palestine in one night
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2024-31-05
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"Mr Biden claimed Hamas is no longer capable of carrying out another attack like the one on 7 October."
If we think they are already not a threat, then they're already gone?
The deal won't actually make Hamas go anywhere.
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2024-31-05
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I don't know that's why I asked.
Why did you ask me to tell you then send me links? Are you unable to explain your thoughts?
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2024-31-05
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You need to understand the current hierarchy, there are 4 elements at play here :
1. **The Government** - This is the coalition of parties governing the parliament, it has 64 of 120 parliament members (min req 61), they area the lawmakers and completely irrelevant for this topic unless they quit the government, I'll add an important note that it currently has an additional party of 12 members in the government solely for a 'war unity gov' but if they quit nothing changes, the government only collapses if they go below 61
2. **The Cabinet** - This is the original forum for security and diplomacy matters (or anything very important), it currently has 6 permanent members from the coalition (4 Likud, 1 Religious Zionism, 1 Jewish Might, basically all the leaders) with an additional 7 members (3 Likud, 3 National Unity, 1 non affiliated minister), 1 observer, 5 permanent VIPs (AG, Chief of National Security+1, Military Secretary for PM+Defense Minister) and to close it all off, these meetings typically take place with a whole host of VIPs such as the Chief of Staff/ISA/Mossad and basically all the liaisons or important and relevant security personnel
Technically speaking this is the 'real' forum, but due to the war, the War Cabinet was established for faster and dedicated decision making
3. **The War Cabinet** - This includes Netanyahu, Gallant (Defense Minister), Gantz (Opposition party leader that joined the gov solely for war purposes, currently Netanyahu's biggest political rival and former Chief of Staff) and a couple observers (one of which is also a former chief of staff), this is where all the real decisions are being made
4. **The Negotiators** - assigned a mandate by the War Cabinet, which as stated received immense flexibility (this means Netanyahu didn't need to agree to 100% of it from the get go)
The term of the deal does suck for Israel, I believe Netanyahu relies on Hamas to fuck it up and ruin negotiations on the 3rd stage, afterwhich Israel may resume fighting but will already have all the hostages, a war with Lebanon might also overshadow all this deal, if we get the female hostages at the very least, Netanyahu will be relieved of A LOT of domestic pressure
From Israel's standpoint, this deals means returning to a worse state than oct 6, because all the 'axis of resistance' (Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and so on) are emboldened and will claim victory (They already do) and showcase that armed resistance is the only way to achieve their goals, Israel basically surrenders to get its hostages back and will return to war at a later date in worse conditions, especially if a 2 state solution is forced upon them
The US just wants it to end, they are hoping Gaza's hostilities ending will stop the Houtis and Hezbollah (and Iraq) from attacking too and they want to tie it all in with a Saudi normalization deal and a 2 state solution, all before elections, they are in for a disappointing reality...
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2024-31-05
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See?
Every decision Hamas makes is to maximise civilian casualties and when civilians die we only point the finger at Israel.
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2024-31-05
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> especially since Hamas is not even a chosen leader of the Palestinian people.
They were voted in by the Palestinians and still have popular support in Gaza.
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2024-31-05
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Egypt essentially hates both sides equally, but just doesn’t want it to become their issue. So they want the war to continue just not enough it would directly affect them.
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2024-31-05
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Egypt has the most powerful military in the Middle East irc. It's the 15th strongest in the world.
[https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country_id=egypt]
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2024-31-05
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That is literally how you get Hamas; you can't get rid of Hamas by being more ruthless than them. There isn't a way to murder enough people until they like you. For every father you kill, there are wives, brothers, sisters, cousins, and children that will plot your death. That is how we got here in the first place.
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2024-31-05
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UN worker equals Hamas worker. So its not objective
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2024-31-05
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Then why does the article say it isn't?
> Sky Middle East correspondent Alistair Bunkall says he has been told the deal has not been made "with the cooperation of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu".
>"Sources close to Mr Netanyahu" have told him they do not "wholly recognise or agree with" the proposal outlined by Mr Biden on Friday.
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2024-31-05
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The whole of international press? Are they all Hamas?
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2024-31-05
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That's absolutely not true, Americans have outright overthrown democratic governments to install pro-US dictators dozens of times.
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2024-31-05
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Yeah, it seems like Egypt would love for Hamas to no longer be sitting on their border, just so long as they don't end up looking like the bad guys.
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2024-31-05
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Good luck with that. The only way to do so is just kill every Palestinian, which is definitely not the ideal situation
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2024-31-05
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I think it's more to do with convincing the government, it's corrupted individuals in government positions accepting bribes probably.
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2024-31-05
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Were they not really dead?
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2024-31-05
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It was "Enflame tensions between Israel and Hamas, right? ... Right?"
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2024-31-05
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so then what is the point in bombing palestinian civilian if this is the case? collective punishment is a war crime you know
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2024-31-05
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> to blow up an international deal
Nah, to pretend there was an agreed upon deal
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2024-31-05
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Sounds like it - I hope this so called deal does not happen
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2024-31-05
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Yeah, they "obliterated" Iraq, then "obliterated" Al-Qaeda, then "obliterated" ISIS, I wonder who they'll have to obliterate next?
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2024-31-05
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Sorry but Israel is not a vassal state so no, not even if US says so
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2024-31-05
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So far we don't know the full details, like you said a high ranking member, singular, not plural. A single member sabotaging isn't a true defintion of the views of the Sisi government. So far we only know its a act of single person who's reasons we don't know, not the views of the Eygptian government.
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2024-31-05
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May I ask, worse in what ways?
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2024-31-05
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Hamas.
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2024-31-05
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They also built schools and hospitals, not only mosques. They were Essentially providing basic services, endearing themselves to the population.
Egypt doesn't want the muslim brotherhood, because it is a threat to its authoritarian power, and gets support from the gulf monarchies for the same reason.
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2024-31-05
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Because he is.
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2024-31-05
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Imagine thinking that any ceasefire that allows humanitarian aid is an awful proposal at this point.
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2024-31-05
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Most of the terms have been relatively the same this whole time. The big difference is that Hamas demands a permanent end. Israel only accepts a temporary one. This one splits the difference by making it semi permanent as long as negotiations are ongoing.
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2024-31-05
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The ottoman empire dissolved in 1923, Israel was created in 1948 on land controlled by britain amd occupied by a mix of mostly arab and some jewish people that considered it Palestine for a long long time.
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2024-31-05
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Oh, that fucking lie again where Palestinians were living happily and frolicking with unicorns until the evil Jews "invaded" in 1948 and ruined everything.
In 1948, a third of the population of the region, which was Palestine only in the sense that the British called it that (before it was a small part of the province of Syria, of the Ottoman empire; before still it was a part of the Roman empire, where its earliest name was Judea, look up what that means), were Jews. The 1947 UN partition plan would have given about a third of the populated area (the green vegetationish bits on a satellite map, as opposed to the yellow desertish bits) to the future state of Israel (and not the best third, agriculturally), plus the Negev, which is an inhospitable desert.
That would have been a pretty good deal for everyone. Unfortunately, the neighbouring Arab states thought an even better deal would be to destroy the Jewish state of Israel at birth and seize the territory for themselves (don't look up what happened to Gaza and the West Bank between 1948 and 1967). And, though we hear a lot of whining about the Nakba, we hear a lot less about the fact that over a third of the Jewish dead in the war of 1948 were civilians (in a conflict where the Israeli doctrine wasn't to hide the military assets behind the civilian population, but the opposite). That those seven Arab states went on to lose to a nation that was, literally, day-old at the start of the hostilities, is quite the indictment of those states' ability to do things (anything) well.
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2024-31-05
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" as well as a "major reconstruction plan" with US and international assistance to rebuild homes, schools and hospitals."
That's so awesome that some country I don't care about can murder 10,000s or people from another country I don't care about and completely destroy the homes and buildings and then we can use my tax dollars to supply the bombs that blew up the buildings and then pay to rebuild everything but we can't have universal healthcare or do something about home prices or fund programs for stronger workers rights.
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2024-31-05
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They don’t need to kill civilians. That is just a consequence of war. Innocent deaths happen in every single conflict ever. There hasn’t been a single war fought where innocent civilians aren’t caught in the crossfire. It’s a sad reality to the world we live in.
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2024-31-05
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It looks very similar but the sad truth of the matter is that this is the only deal that would make sense for both sides... I'm somehow confused as to why wait for the bodies in the 3rd stage though?? Just odd because they ain't worth much to Hamas anyway.
The biggest difference is the promise for sustainable peace on the second stage... But the "permanently" is just another way around it.
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2024-31-05
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If it weren't for the war, he wouldn't be. The only reason he hasn't been ousted by now is because Israel got distracted
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2024-31-05
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>Biden repeated their already made proposal
incorrect, the older Israeli proposal didn't include them pulling their troops out of populated areas in Gaza.
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2024-31-05
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Any desire to explain yourself, or are you content with complicated analogies about my stupidity?
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2024-31-05
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You're very wrong. They don't view Israel as a potential enemy so mildly weakening them doesn't really move the needle for Egypt. But, far more importantly, a huge humanitarian crisis in Gaza means millions of refugees that want to go *somewhere* - and the only "somewhere" available is Egypt.
They REALLY don't want any Palestinian refugees (didn't end too hot historically for countries...) and that's their primary concern here.
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2024-31-05
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>I would not kill innocent civilians to avenge my family under any circumstances.
That assumes you were raised in a way to view targets as innocent civilians and not simply your enemy.
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2024-31-05
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Israel originally wanted a something like 40 hostages for a couple hundred Palestinian prisoners and a two month ceasefire originally. That got worse and worse, ballooned upwards to 600-700 prisoners. Hostages asked for decreased to like 33 at a point.
Now here we are, Biden proposing what Hamas wanted: full ceasefire, Israel provides reconstruction aid completely, for hostages (alive or dead), and potentially thousands of prisoners released (including many convicted terrorists).
If Hamas gets this, it's an absolute victory for them and it vindicates them for Oct 7th.
Unless there are more details not yet released.
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2024-31-05
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I'll say one thing, I expect Jewish children to have far better sexual education in the us than Christians. I mean that in the preventing STD way.
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2024-31-05
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These aren't really assumptions. The stated goal of Hamas is the eradication of Israel and they have the backing of Iran to continue this fight. How would the UN enforce a peaceful buffer zone between the Israeli military and Hamas? And if the UN presence was making it more difficult to strike Israel directly, then why do you think UN peacekeepers wouldn't become targets? You're making it sound like these are two kids that just need some breathing room to calm down and then they'll be OK.
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2024-31-05
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Yeah, that's always been the case.
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2024-31-05
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I mean Egypt used to be slanted toward the eastern bloc in cold wars. It could be some deep back-channel intelligence deal between Russia and Egypt to sabotage the deal.
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2024-31-05
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> ~~Smart~~ *Reactionary* leadership, the international press can’t be trusted at this point.
Honestly this should have been anticipated last time.
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2024-31-05
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Japan was already a wealthy and westernized country before WW2.
Same for Germany.
It's why the whole Japan/Germany talking points don't work in this case. Is/was Gaza a wealthy, prosperous country before hand? No.
We are far more likely to see Afghanistan 2.0.
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2024-31-05
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Biden is.
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2024-31-05
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Exactly, which is a widely suspected reason of why they refuse to show proof of life. They can’t and it would show they have no chips.
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2024-31-05
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It gives Hamas a political victory. And it means that in 5-7 years we'll be back in a thread about Israel and Palestine because Hamas once again got violent and started another war.
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2024-31-05
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Religion is the real answer. Hatred for Jews is built into Islam, and all surrounding countries see Palestinians as a tool to sabotage Israel by filling their heads with hatred.
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2024-31-05
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No there haven't, not with israel.
the only remotely close example would be [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalil\_al-Wazir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalil_al-Wazir) who was exiled, tracked down, and killed. and what sinwar on a completely different scale.
This might end with hamas around in some form, but it wont be over until sinwar is dead. And sinwar knows if hes ever out of blast radius of an israeli hostage and they find him, they will drop whatever they have on him where ever he is.
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2024-31-05
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Yeah, if I had to guess I'd say that is likely more for domestic ears but realistically it could also be attempted by inserting some sort of international / pan-Arab entity to basically maintain order in the strip, I doubt they can go back into Gaza if and after the deal takes place...
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2024-31-05
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Because they engaged in extensive negotiations with Hamas in the meantime (which unsurprisingly fell through), evacuated a million civilians and set up a humanitarian zones, to name a couple of reasons….
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2024-31-05
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What happens to the peace deal if Hamas hasn't got any hostages to show, like in they all escaped or the Israelis killed them accidentally during their attacks.
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2024-31-05
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Also would obliterate a large amount of propaganda by revealing the extent of rape and torture.
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2024-31-05
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Also Japan's surrender had the condition that the monarchy couldn't be touched. So it wasn't really an "Unconditional surrender". It was just the US saying sure. and calling it an Unconditional surrender.
The US also really didn't want to have to invade Japan. Millions of American's dead wasn't exactly something Truman wanted.
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2024-31-05
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For some strange reason, worldnews articles on the conflict are unique among reddit comment sections in that they're completely dominated by the POV that all the hostages are dead anyway, it's pointless to try and bargain for them, and Palestinian civilian casualties don't matter (with a healthy helping of civilian casualties are lies/they aren't really civilians/the kids work for hamas which make them targets).
The comment sections are either completely overwhelmed by this POV, or it seems almost completely absent. It's a strange pattern of engagement.
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2024-31-05
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If your clearly and publicly stated intent is to wipe Hamas out utterly, why even propose a peace treaty with them?
The answer, obviously, is to placate your American allies. Netanyahu's problem is that Biden is under too much pressure to be placated by a sham peace process. Trump's conviction hasn't caused Biden to soar in the polls, so he really needs to address issues like this well before the election.
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2024-31-05
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Which surely isn't going to work as Israel would presumably just take the time to gather intel and then find some reason the negotiations would be off after that to continue an offensive. How can the other side see it any other way?
What incentive would Israel have to actually follow through after phase one? The united states saying "please do not?"
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2024-31-05
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Ok so just under then and over a way longer period of time
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2024-31-05
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If the argument you’re making is that anything less than open borders = Hamas is justified in killing Israelis to liberate Palestine, you’re sick in the head.
Before 2005, Gaza indeed was basically part of Israel. Mosab Hasan Yousef, one of the sons of the founders of Hamas, openly talks about going for lunch in Tel Aviv before heading back to Gaza for the night.
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2024-31-05
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Hamas isn't a bastion of competence.
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2024-31-05
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> after 9/11 the US obliterated isis murdering millions in the process, no one ever told them to stop
The historical revisionism around this is insane, the whole "Freedom Fries" fiasco was specifically because France was against the US invading Iraq. And they weren't the only ones.
You're either a child (and thus wouldn't remember that) or have terrible memory and for both of them I recommend actually learning about a topic before making such claims.
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2024-31-05
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Eh, "obliterate" is too strong a term to use, given that there's already plenty of evidence that people are ignoring as-is.
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2024-31-05
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If they dont kill them hamas would just rise up again thats the dillema unless they negotiate. Plus Israel had been shown multiple times to kill civs on purpose
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2024-31-05
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> (and let’s be clear, the moment they dropped white phosphorous, they were war criminals. that’s a war crime. period)
Small nitpick. It's not a war crime to use white phosphorous. There are several valid uses for it.
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2024-31-05
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Man it's gotta suck for Egyptians. It shouldn't be your problem yet you are dragged into it and everyone is inventing reasons to blame you for something, somehow
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2024-01-06
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Israel is rooting out a terrorist group that purposely blends in with civilians and enjoys widespread grassroots support of the local population. That they could even hope to finish destroying that organization in that short a timeframe seems near fanciful to me.
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2024-01-06
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> If the goal was against terrorism, they would be trying to get rid of Hamas
This is what they are doing right now. Well, try to do. Their hands are kind of tied.
> not leave Hamas in power and use Palestine as a hedge to keep Netanyahu in power.
Whos fault is that? Maybe the countries who pressure them to leave Hamas in power? Also Hamas has very high support in Gaza, so even if there would be elections amongst Palestinians, Hamas would win.
> Why would Israel not hold elections in an occupied territory if it's goal was to get rid of and replace Hamas?
Do you understand how naive it is? Elections in an occupied territory? Are you serious? For elections to mean anything it would actually need people to participate in those elections and sizable amount of Palestinians are evacuated from occupied territory. Also, result of those elections are well known even now, Hamas would win and win big.
> There goal was never to get rid of Hamas. Don't kid yourself, or at least don't be so naive.
Please show me where exactly did I tell that goal was to get rid of Hamas?
> The goal of this war is prevention of future acts of terror.
This is my quote, how on earth did you interpret it as getting rid of Hamas? Getting rid of Hamas would just be tool to achieve this goal, but it won't be end of it.
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2024-01-06
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Considering lots of the dead on October 7th were killed by Israeli helicopters it would be difficult.
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2024-01-06
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There’s oil under southern Palestine and off the coast which is why the US is interested
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2024-01-06
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PREACH. I don't give a fucking shit about rebuilding Gaza or supplying it with aid. STOP GIVING THEM OUR MONEY.
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2024-01-06
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They've been sending actual soldiers into tunnels instead of the several families of drones designed for this purpose. They haven't used any of their specialized anti tunnel munititions. They have been searching for tunnels manually (and having tanks be ambushed by insurgents popping out of tunnels) instead of using stuff like ground penetrating radar, ground penetrating sonar, magnetic anomaly detectors, etc. (They're supposed to have whole variants of the Nameer for this mission exactly. And MAD can be put on any aircraft, even drones).
Their ISR assets apparently can't ID who are in vehicles and whether or not they're armed, there are communications issues between the ISR people and the shooters on the ground, they're so scared of using PGMs (in case of a Hez confrontation) that they're minimizing the use of PGMs. Which is also them saying they can't fight Hez and Gaza at the same time, which they were *supposed* to be able to do.
Israel is fighting this war the way the USAF would in 2003. Which is still technological anihilation, but Israel is supposed to have been preparing for this exact conflict in this exact tiny geographic location since 2005. And every single tech I mentioned above has existed in military use since the 70s, except air based ground penetrating radar. Ground GPR is super easy, I've used it in my regular civilian job, it's a little one handed push cart that looks like a gonk droid.
Israel is relying on air power, which is fine and they've been doing that longer than America has, in a way, but they actually have dozens of better tools they're just not using to effect.
And a war that's fought 90 percent with air power is going to have shittons of civil casualties. Especially with an enemy that knows this.
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2024-01-06
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> but we can't have universal healthcare or do something about home prices or fund programs for stronger workers rights.
Even the neolibs have been on board with all of those recently. You can thank conservatives for no domestic spending on any of those issues, not this administration.
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2024-01-06
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It's absolutely not Israel's fault if Hamas chooses to launch rockets from there, especially if the system is automated.
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2024-01-06
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Oh nice. An auto attack for schools and hospitals.
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2024-01-06
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If you’re using it with the intention of burning people though that’s def in war crime territory (because I feel it’s necessary, I’m in the camp that there is no “good guy” here)
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2024-01-06
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The EU built the water system with those pipes. But otherwise. Eyup
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2024-01-06
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"hey get that big beautiful jew penis out of here! c'mon now!"
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2024-01-06
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your extra source I dont see shit about it? and this is why conext matters, your own link there says the jews arent being wiped out or something they are just moving out of the arab areas into france, and isreal so not really sure what the point of those low numbers are other than to show people move around?
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2024-01-06
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Don't get too excited, almost everything he said is a gross exaggeration over simplification or fabrication. For example, the rise of Hamas has absolutely nothing to do with black September's fall.
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2024-01-06
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Is there any living left? Is my question
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2024-01-06
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Not disagreeing with you but how are you editing your comment if you've been banned?
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2024-01-06
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I don't know how people are ignoring or even justifying 10/7. Nuts man. With that logic, that would be like people being okay with Native Americans all of a sudden shooting up and kidnapping citizens in America.
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2024-01-06
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Except Hamas proposed this exact scenario back in February
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-seeks-prisoner-hostage-exchange-withdrawal-israeli-forces-ceasefire-2024-02-07/
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2024-01-06
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Don't worry, media will be sure to report on how inflation is not down as much as experts had hoped and they'll be sure sure to give Trump unlimited time to say the same the same old recycled horseshit for hours and hours.
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2024-01-06
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When you word things poorly it doesn't matter your intent when 99.9% of people reading it read it differently.
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2024-01-06
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