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I don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\""
] |
>
Given how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be."
] |
>
And then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either"
] |
>
They really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?"
] |
>
There shouldn't be anyone left to "think twice". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again."
] |
>
Well that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power."
] |
>
Even if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat."
] |
>
Money doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth"
] |
>
It ought to include Russia leaving them | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning"
] |
>
“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”
“What percent?”
“Zero. Zero is a percent.” | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them"
] |
>
Nah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”"
] |
>
They stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet."
] |
>
Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them."
] |
>
Nah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades"
] |
>
Which will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES."
] |
>
"dibs" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border."
] |
>
I see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car"
] |
>
When your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours."
] |
>
There can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice."
] |
>
There won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory."
] |
>
Not to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though."
] |
>
The only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on."
] |
>
With the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members."
] |
>
IIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now."
] |
>
IIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO
Russia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience."
] |
>
Asking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.
EDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?"
] |
>
In the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.
Wars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their "firepower", hence it was useless in the end. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada."
] |
>
Ukraine got Nato Style Training since 2014...
and whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics.
Logistics wins the Wars.
An constant feed of supply to the Front,
Food, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end."
] |
>
Russia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons."
] |
>
Yup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years."
] |
>
Wrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan."
] |
>
Alaska
American citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too."
] |
>
Honestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion."
] |
>
Bro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house! | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible."
] |
>
They haven't already? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!"
] |
>
Just her bank account. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?"
] |
>
Yes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account."
] |
>
There you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions."
] |
>
So wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?
What I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this."
] |
>
Ukraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions."
] |
>
So basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again."
] |
>
Ukraine says come get some peace bitch. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?"
] |
>
Patriots will say so too I hope. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch."
] |
>
The fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope."
] |
>
It's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses."
] |
>
They still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD."
] |
>
Kremlin can go fuck themselves. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending."
] |
>
Oh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories…
Include returning them to Ukraine, that is | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves."
] |
>
They appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day
Edit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently! | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is"
] |
>
If you say everything than online supporters can find a "source" that defends any position.
They're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.
The goal is people to say
I don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!"
] |
>
I don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me."
] |
>
It’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses."
] |
>
No one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine."
] |
>
Whoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia."
] |
>
Hey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad"
] |
>
Wow Russia is bad at this | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?"
] |
>
Also applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this"
] |
>
Kremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do."
] |
>
The only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia! | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion."
] |
>
There is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.
That's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.
What they are basically saying here is, "Please just let us take your land already." Pathetic. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!"
] |
>
Any peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic."
] |
>
We call that defenestration. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window."
] |
>
Special Presidential Defenstration. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration."
] |
>
Lol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣 | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration."
] |
>
I'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣"
] |
>
Hmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided."
] |
>
please not Gandhi | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?"
] |
>
Of course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi"
] |
>
Annexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.
This is why I call the "Peace talks are always a good thing" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back."
] |
>
And please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't "just win it back," because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it.
This isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake "annexation" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back"
] |
>
Ukraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land."
] |
>
re-annexed
And that's why they don't.
Russia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.
They don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs.
Pretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause."
] |
>
Keep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims."
] |
>
Finally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin."
] |
>
Kremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions
Fair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely."
] |
>
The People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?"
] |
>
Belgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation."
] |
>
Looking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry."
] |
>
I'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again"
] |
>
The Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing.
Nobody liked that kid. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included."
] |
>
Hahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass.
Russia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid."
] |
>
Russia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU."
] |
>
Thief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this"
] |
>
"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!" | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state."
] |
>
We all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\""
] |
>
If those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.
If they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first."
] |
>
If those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.
From my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future."
] |
>
Then forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.
Every town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason."
] |
>
Ukraine: “no” | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out."
] |
>
Never has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”"
] |
>
Ukraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.
Russia should understand this argument ;P | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia."
] |
>
for someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P"
] |
>
World says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands"
] |
>
Since when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat? | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands",
">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked."
] |
>
"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine."
There, done. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands",
">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.",
">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?"
] |
>
Well then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands",
">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.",
">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?",
">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done."
] |
>
Kinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands",
">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.",
">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?",
">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.",
">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil."
] |
>
I agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.
Weird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands",
">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.",
">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?",
">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.",
">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.",
">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them."
] |
>
Sure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.” | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands",
">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.",
">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?",
">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.",
">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.",
">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.",
">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia."
] |
>
Putin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks. | [
"It's like saying there will be no peace plan.",
">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...",
">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.",
">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.",
">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.",
">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation",
">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment",
">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.",
">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…",
">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.",
">\n\nReturned in their restored original state",
">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.",
">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?",
">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians",
">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.",
">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"",
">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.",
">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either",
">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?",
">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.",
">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.",
">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.",
">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth",
">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning",
">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them",
">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”",
">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.",
">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.",
">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades",
">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.",
">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.",
">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car",
">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.",
">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.",
">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.",
">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.",
">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.",
">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.",
">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.",
">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.",
">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?",
">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.",
">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.",
">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.",
">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.",
">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.",
">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.",
">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.",
">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.",
">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!",
">\n\nThey haven't already?",
">\n\nJust her bank account.",
">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.",
">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.",
">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.",
">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.",
">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?",
">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.",
">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.",
">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.",
">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.",
">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.",
">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.",
">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is",
">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!",
">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.",
">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.",
">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.",
">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.",
">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad",
">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?",
">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this",
">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.",
">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.",
">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!",
">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.",
">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.",
">\n\nWe call that defenestration.",
">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.",
">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣",
">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.",
">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?",
">\n\nplease not Gandhi",
">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.",
">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back",
">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.",
">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.",
">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.",
">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.",
">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.",
">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?",
">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.",
">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.",
">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again",
">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.",
">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.",
">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.",
">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this",
">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.",
">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"",
">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.",
">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.",
">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.",
">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.",
">\n\nUkraine: “no”",
">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.",
">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P",
">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands",
">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.",
">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?",
">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.",
">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.",
">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.",
">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.",
">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”"
] |
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