Split (1)

train · 212k rows

comment stringlengths 1 9.9k	context sequencelengths 0 835
> He got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now. Luckily the world sees through his bullshit now.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks." ]
> Ukraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now." ]
> This is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then." ]
> Oh okay so no peace then. Cool cool.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field." ]
> Seems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool." ]
> I agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace." ]
> "I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox"	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!" ]
> What a cluster. Putin can't leave and save face without this. Ukraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less. What a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose. Meanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States. Lavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet. I wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"" ]
> I agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this." ]
> “We want peace, really we do” “Ok, what are your terms?” “The unconditional surrender of your country and land” “No” “WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea." ]
> We agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”" ]
> Until the next "special military operation" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now "legitimately" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new "peace talks" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which "Ukraine have to give us more". "Peace agreement" is just another form of the russian well known "perfidy mentality". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that "nuisance" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the "untermensch"). Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine" ]
> -Demand the maximum -dont negotiate -get something you didnt have before Dont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries." ]
> Kremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia" ]
> Yeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully." ]
> Only if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter." ]
> Thief says surrender plan must include solen money.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return." ]
> No; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money." ]
> Anyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible." ]
> This is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep" ]
> If Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss." ]
> I tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded." ]
> Such bullshit. Ukraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine." ]
> Kremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point. Kremlin can go fuck itself.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense." ]
> Ukraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself." ]
> So they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes." ]
> I'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal. Any Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?" ]
> Nothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop." ]
> This is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience." ]
> Kremlin is scared and bluffing!	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda." ]
> It does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!" ]
> The Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum." ]
> At least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war." ]
> Suck my grits there krem boy	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit." ]
> And Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy" ]
> *Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse." ]
> The only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. Putin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine." ]
> They need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years." ]
> I guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!" ]
> They're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this." ]
> Nobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea" ]
> Ukraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat." ]
> Should read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too." ]
> And there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid." ]
> He's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers." ]
> Absolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions." ]
> Russia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone ." ]
> More plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest. No doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences." ]
> I think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly..." ]
> Here is a counter offer	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions....." ]
> If the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer" ]
> Walk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check." ]
> Nnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg." ]
> Then there is no peace plan	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with." ]
> The deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions. Not in the way they'd hope though.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan" ]
> I agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though." ]
> Give an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!" ]
> In other words: Kremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next." ]
> He's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'." ]
> WE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions." ]
> I agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it." ]
> Ukraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back." ]
> Fuck Putin. Give him nothing.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea." ]
> we will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing." ]
> The largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing?? I'd say no deal.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us." ]
> Amazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. The on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal." ]
> Like Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country." ]
> Ukraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace..." ]
> The peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions." ]
> Not saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions." ]
> How about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing." ]
> “…must include annexed regions” Fuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist." ]
> Go home Kremlin, you're drunk	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times." ]
> Starting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk" ]
> Perfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say "a deal's a deal"!	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is." ]
> I'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!" ]
> This is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine." ]
> Funny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine." ]
> I imagine it will. Specifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0" ]
> But losers don’t dictate terms	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”." ]
> Says the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms" ]
> Sure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas" ]
> And Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: "HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA". They need to be knocked the fuck down	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland." ]
> What’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed? People forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down" ]
> Russia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well." ]
> Oldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end." ]
> Oh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this." ]
> Since when do losers dictate terms?	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.", ">\n\nOh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine" ]
> I'd prefer my tax dollars are spent supporting Ukraine until the Ukrainians want to stop fighting. If the Ukranians want to keep killing a bunch of corrupt terrorists until they're all dead that's fine with me. Russia is a terrorist state and the world is better off without it.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.", ">\n\nOh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine", ">\n\nSince when do losers dictate terms?" ]
> Newsflash Russia: you don’t dictate anything. This is your Vietnam and if you don’t wake up this foolish war will ruin you	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.", ">\n\nOh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine", ">\n\nSince when do losers dictate terms?", ">\n\nI'd prefer my tax dollars are spent supporting Ukraine until the Ukrainians want to stop fighting. If the Ukranians want to keep killing a bunch of corrupt terrorists until they're all dead that's fine with me.\nRussia is a terrorist state and the world is better off without it." ]
> These Guys have their heads so far up their asses that they think they have bargaining power. It's almost as if the Russian Economy ISN'T SLIPPING	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.", ">\n\nOh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine", ">\n\nSince when do losers dictate terms?", ">\n\nI'd prefer my tax dollars are spent supporting Ukraine until the Ukrainians want to stop fighting. If the Ukranians want to keep killing a bunch of corrupt terrorists until they're all dead that's fine with me.\nRussia is a terrorist state and the world is better off without it.", ">\n\nNewsflash Russia: you don’t dictate anything. This is your Vietnam and if you don’t wake up this foolish war will ruin you" ]
> Kremlin can negotiate with the launch tubes of HIMARS in their mouths	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.", ">\n\nOh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine", ">\n\nSince when do losers dictate terms?", ">\n\nI'd prefer my tax dollars are spent supporting Ukraine until the Ukrainians want to stop fighting. If the Ukranians want to keep killing a bunch of corrupt terrorists until they're all dead that's fine with me.\nRussia is a terrorist state and the world is better off without it.", ">\n\nNewsflash Russia: you don’t dictate anything. This is your Vietnam and if you don’t wake up this foolish war will ruin you", ">\n\nThese Guys have their heads so far up their asses that they think they have bargaining power.\nIt's almost as if the Russian Economy ISN'T SLIPPING" ]
> If you listen to Fiona Hill, a former advisor to the security counsil in the US, she talk a lot about Putin and his tactics. He is loosing the war and so he is trying the shift the narrative all the time. I think there were some comments about it called "firehouse of "something"". His tactic has all along being to take crimea and Donbas (and part if now while of kherson and the other regions for water and flow of goods security). This was did not go as he thought it was. The gerogian was so sudden the world didn't have time to blink. So with the 2014. And we should have pushed back then as the US and the UK gave safety guarantees back 1994 that their sovereign integrity would be protected in them giving up their nuclear arsenal. So we have a responsibility now to help them. The Russians cannot win this war on the original goals as countries are finally grasping how severe the situation actually is. So what is he doing now? Changing narrative (or lying if you will). He talks constantly doing nuclear saber rustling to try and scare Europe. We should not even have this conversation because it is his narrative. Not once have anyone threatened russia with nuclear weapons, so we talk about it? It is only him. And you see, this ia what they are doing. Deflecting deflecting deflecting, untill you almoat forget about Ukraine. They want to get out of it but on their terms. So this is why they are doing. Laugh it off until the come crawling to the MEDIATION table.	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.", ">\n\nOh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine", ">\n\nSince when do losers dictate terms?", ">\n\nI'd prefer my tax dollars are spent supporting Ukraine until the Ukrainians want to stop fighting. If the Ukranians want to keep killing a bunch of corrupt terrorists until they're all dead that's fine with me.\nRussia is a terrorist state and the world is better off without it.", ">\n\nNewsflash Russia: you don’t dictate anything. This is your Vietnam and if you don’t wake up this foolish war will ruin you", ">\n\nThese Guys have their heads so far up their asses that they think they have bargaining power.\nIt's almost as if the Russian Economy ISN'T SLIPPING", ">\n\nKremlin can negotiate with the launch tubes of HIMARS in their mouths" ]
>	[ "It's like saying there will be no peace plan.", ">\n\nPutin seems to be having some trouble understanding what it means to lose a war he started. No, man, you don't get your ass kicked and then make demands. I mean, you can but ...", ">\n\nPutin has no way to sustain that area even if he wanted to. Bullets are flying, blood is flowing. Any chance he had to maintain the peninsula is gone. Even if he tries to keep it, his garrison will be annihilated. Putin blinked first. He knows he’s fucked.", ">\n\nI was explaining this to someone the other day. Invading and taking territory is the easiest part, but also the most important. \nThe better your invasion, the better prepared you’ll be for phase 2: occupation. \nAnd in this case the Russians have outright failed to invade and will be doomed occupying any gained territory.\nHell, think historically. The US had one of the best invasion of all time, and even then absolutely struggled to occupy Iraq and arguably failed in Afghanistan. You got to be flawless to pull this off.", ">\n\nYou are thinking like an American, or a westerner and not like a Russian. Occupation in western terms means we send a army in, and essentially run the country and control the people. IE, Iraq. \nThe Russian way is you send in a army, kill or move the existing population out (or atleast a majority of it), then replace with your own population. Thats exactly what they did in Crimea, which will make it much harder for Ukraine to re-integrate it into their territory.", ">\n\nJust kick everyone out who moved there after the annexation", ">\n\nProbably.. but that will be easier said than done. A lot of Crimea was Pro-Russian in 2014 and have actively collaborated with the Russians. What do you do with all of them? Not talking about a few dozen people, but likely hundreds of thousands.. \nI have no doubt Ukraine can take Crimea back eventually.. but unlike other parts of Ukraine, I think its going to be a shit show after they do. Also, no chance that Russia willingly gives up Sevastopol either, its the one area I can see them using Nukes to stop the Ukrainians.", ">\n\nAuction each parcel of land off to the highest bidder with Ukrainian citizenship, treat the current \"landowners\" as the refugees they are and offer them the chance to return to Russia proper or get resettled into Ukraine proper\nAfter nearly a decade of Russian occupation, there is zero chance the people there are anything but Russian complicit pawns who would let Russia invade again. Treating them as anything but that is going to be a long term detriment", ">\n\nI'd say an important part of reclamation would require anyone who lives in the area to move away for at least a short period of time, a week could work at minimum. \nIn order to return they must sign a declaration that they recognize that Crimea is sovereign territory of Ukraine, and swear to uphold and defend Ukraine's claims to the land, or their right to be in that land will be revoked.", ">\n\nArrested criminal: my plea bargain must include keeping the stolen goods\nProsecution: uh…", ">\n\nWell the plan SHOULD include it. I think it should say: \"Russia shall return all regions to Ukraine, including Crimeria and shall lose access to Sevastapol. Russian leaders shall stand trial for war crimes committed\"\nThere you go, included as requested.", ">\n\nReturned in their restored original state", ">\n\nBetter to fix the area with Ukranian people, but get Russia to pay reparations. I wouldn't trust the invaders to do a good job restoring anything.", ">\n\nAre you insinuating that the country that failed at the road trip portion of an invasion is bad at logistics?", ">\n\n“What if we drive all of our supplies in one straight line along this road and then come to a stop?“\n-21st Century Tacticians", ">\n\n\ncome to a stop\n\nI'm not convinced this is as much a part of the plan as it is a consequence of yknow...not having fuel/working motors.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they didn't have fuel because they forgot that the rest of us can be like, \"yo Ukrainians...we can't do boots on the ground, but how would you feel about a mountain of rocket drones and also up-to-the-minute info about where all of your enemies are at all times?\"", ">\n\nI don’t think they forgot, I think Putin and his goons completely miscalculated how intense the Wests response would be.", ">\n\nGiven how we responded to Crimea it wasn't exactly poor logic either", ">\n\nAnd then 5 years later they pull the same crap again. Why would anyone trust a single word coming out of theses peoples mouths?", ">\n\nThey really shouldn't gain anything from this war, if anything Ukraine should get Crimea back. This whole war should be such a massive fuck-up for Russia that they'll hopefully think twice about invading again.", ">\n\nThere shouldn't be anyone left to \"think twice\". The people who thought it the first time need to be removed from power.", ">\n\nWell that would happen if they loose. Therefore Putin will rather keep this war going and sacrifice more meat.", ">\n\nEven if/when they lose putin will always have massive amounts of power, he's one of the richest people on earth", ">\n\nMoney doesn't always protect you from lead poisoning", ">\n\nIt ought to include Russia leaving them", ">\n\n“…and Russian shall retain a certain percentage of the annexed regions.”\n“What percent?”\n“Zero. Zero is a percent.”", ">\n\nNah, 0.0001%, they can keep that one nasty toilet.", ">\n\nThey stick it right on the border and draw a semicircle line around it and then give it to them.", ">\n\nOnly 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine comrades", ">\n\nNah. Only 100,000,000 more invasions until we have all of Ukraine's COMMODES.", ">\n\nWhich will all be built into a nice ceramic wall at the border.", ">\n\n\"dibs\" must be respected says demented man trying to shove himself into a stranger's car", ">\n\nI see it more as pissing on something to claim it's yours.", ">\n\nWhen your peepee blows stuff up, recommend seeking medical advice.", ">\n\nThere can obviously be no peace plans while there are still russians occupying Ukrainian territory.", ">\n\nThere won't be a need for peace talk if there aren't any Russian occupied Ukrainian territory though.", ">\n\nNot to mention Russia has proven twice now that treatys between them and Ukraine arent worth the paper they are printed on.", ">\n\nThe only treaty Russia understands is NATO and force. Ukraine will be armed to the hilt after this, actually, they’re already ahead of some NATO members.", ">\n\nWith the amount of weapons and veteran troops Ukraine might be downright the strongest land army in Europe right now.", ">\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO (behind the US), with about 2x the number of active troops of Germany or France, close to 3x that of the UK. On paper, Ukraine had a bit under half the active troops prior to the invasion, although they also had a much larger reserve force than Turkey, and after this year they probably have a lot more hands-on experience.", ">\n\n\nIIRC, Turkey has the second-largest standing army in NATO\n\nRussia had a huge army too. What is the quality like for the average Turkish recruit?", ">\n\nAsking the real questions now. Hard to say without actually seeing them in action, but according to the Global Firepower Index, they came in 13th out of 142 countries looked at, behind France and UK (at 7th and 8th, respectively), but ahead of Germany (16th). Granted the same index put Russia at the #2 spot, so… yeah, might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt.\nEDIT: On a side note, the index put Ukraine at the #22 spot, right between Taiwan and Canada.", ">\n\nIn the video game scenario of putting Russian army vs Ukrainian army in an open neutral field with no external help, Russian forces would have likely dominated pre-2022.\nWars don't happen like that though. Russia launched an invasion, something already difficult to pull off, completely ducked that up, and refused to back down. On the other hand Ukrainians are defending their home, receive excellent intelligence and also foreign aid. So Russia is disadvantaged or dominated in every other way other than their \"firepower\", hence it was useless in the end.", ">\n\nUkraine got Nato Style Training since 2014... \nand whats way more important, they got trained in Nato Style Logitics. \nLogistics wins the Wars. \nAn constant feed of supply to the Front, \nFood, Gear matching the Weather, Fuel and Ammo and Weapons.", ">\n\nRussia is stalling. They want to take the winter off and regroup. Even if they made peace now they would attack in a few years.", ">\n\nYup. Putin intends to retake USSR borders. Just like Crimea, they will stop at nothing less than all of Ukraine. He's just doing it in an installment plan.", ">\n\nWrong, he wants way more than that. He wants Warsaw, Alaska, and Finland too.", ">\n\n\nAlaska \n\nAmerican citizens drooling in the 0.83 people per gun ratio at the thought of an invasion.", ">\n\nHonestly, they'd never even get past the coastline. In a conventional (non nuclear) war, the US control of the seas and sky would essentially make it impossible.", ">\n\nBro, you know they'd make it to Sarah Palin's house!", ">\n\nThey haven't already?", ">\n\nJust her bank account.", ">\n\nYes; Ukraine reclaims the annexed regions.", ">\n\nThere you go, peace talks that involve the annexed regions, I see no problem with this.", ">\n\nSo wait does this mean that if they turn the war around, annex back all the annexed stuff, and can annex Moscow then it's finders keepers when they sit down at the war table?\nWhat I'm hearing is the rules of peace talks are git what you grab, which raises some interesting propositions.", ">\n\nUkraine should counter an offer that Russia will never go for. To allow Ukraine to freely join NATO without any push back from Russia. This will ensure Russia will never touch Ukrainian land again.", ">\n\nSo basically the same as their current war plan (having failed to take the lot) with the word ‘war’ crossed out and peace written in in crayon?", ">\n\nUkraine says come get some peace bitch.", ">\n\nPatriots will say so too I hope.", ">\n\nThe fact that they are getting those missiles is just unbelivable. Will be a monumental boost to the Ukraine military. Hope we will hear of some of the sucesses.", ">\n\nIt's one basket. Wise to not put all your eggs in it. I have no doubt it will be a huge help and save lives. Should it be taken out NBD.", ">\n\nThey still have all of the other weapons (minus usage) that we and everyone else have been sending.", ">\n\nKremlin can go fuck themselves.", ">\n\nOh don’t worry, they all include annexed territories… \nInclude returning them to Ukraine, that is", ">\n\nThey appear to be trying some new tactic of just constantly spewing contradictory bullshit several times a day\nEdit: holy crap this got a lot of upvotes* I do understand the firehose of falsehood concept I think my intent was more that they’ve turned up the tap recently!", ">\n\nIf you say everything than online supporters can find a \"source\" that defends any position.\nThey're not trying to convince people Russia is right. They're trying to make it so confusing people don't want to put any thought into it.\nThe goal is people to say\n\nI don't even know, it's too confusing and doesn't really effect me.", ">\n\nI don’t know, it’s too confusing so we should just keep arming Ukraine till Russia collapses.", ">\n\nIt’s confusing, we should just take Russia and give it to Ukraine.", ">\n\nNo one wants Russia. Hell at this point I would be genuinely shocked if Russia wants Russia.", ">\n\nWhoever draws the short straw has to take Kalingrad", ">\n\nHey, Kralovec have historical owner, WTF man?", ">\n\nWow Russia is bad at this", ">\n\nAlso applies to Russian logistics, anti-corruption measures, and every other thing that Russia tries to do.", ">\n\nKremlin utterly divorced from reality about how much bargaining power they have after an utter debacle and failure of an invasion.", ">\n\nThe only peace plan Ukraine has now is victory over Russia!", ">\n\nThere is only one option for a truce: Get the fuck out, and live the rest of your days in shame.\nThat's it. You are an invader, there is no other truce than to leave.\nWhat they are basically saying here is, \"Please just let us take your land already.\" Pathetic.", ">\n\nAny peace plan should include Putin getting yeeted out of a window.", ">\n\nWe call that defenestration.", ">\n\nSpecial Presidential Defenstration.", ">\n\nLol. We are going to start a war because we want to annex parts of your country into our own. Then when the world condemns us and we are losing, we are going to demand the exact thing we started the war over as a peace offering. Wut? 🤣", ">\n\nI'll never laugh at another peace proposal in Civ 6 ever again. No matter how lopsided.", ">\n\nHmmm! Now that you talk about it... what if the Russian army was lead by a Civ AI? What happens next?", ">\n\nplease not Gandhi", ">\n\nOf course they will be included. Russia will have to give them back.", ">\n\nAnnexed regions that they either retreated from or never controlled in the first place.\nThis is why I call the \"Peace talks are always a good thing\" crowd a bunch of idiots. Peace talks are a complete waste of time if any party involved isn't negotiating in good faith. You don't negotiate for peace when the other party demands you to give up land that you just won back", ">\n\nAnd please let's never ever forget - Ukraine didn't \"just win it back,\" because Russia never legitimately held the territory or any rights to it. \nThis isn't some land dispute that's been going on since before any of us were born, despite Putin's wishing it were so. This is Russia, invading a peaceful country, killing their people, and putting a flag on their soil with fake \"annexation\" narratives every nation knows were shame. They do not have a whisper of a claim to one square millimeter of that land.", ">\n\nUkraine should put on a big deal about how he passed a law and re-annexed all those stolen areas and specifically include a no givsies backsies clause.", ">\n\n\nre-annexed\n\nAnd that's why they don't.\nRussia's illegal occupation and sham votes never changed the fact that it was Ukraine.\nThey don't have to re-annex it, it was always theirs. \nPretending otherwise just gives credit to Russia's bullshit claims.", ">\n\nKeep marching Ukraine, ignore their bullshit, crush the Kremlin.", ">\n\nFinally, something we can all agree on. A peace plan certainly must include those regions, with a plan for Russia withdrawing from them entirely.", ">\n\n\nKremlin says any Ukraine peace plan must include annexed regions\n\nFair enough. What regions of Russia will the Ukraine be annexing?", ">\n\nThe People's Republic of Belgorod cries out for liberation.", ">\n\nBelgorod speaks up too loudly Russia might hit them with more rockets, next time without saying sorry.", ">\n\nLooking more and more like Ukraine has won and Russia is just demanding things now because they know they've lost. Ukraine literally has nothing to gain handing over anything as they're just going to be invaded again", ">\n\nI'm sure a peace plan from Ukraine would include the annexed areas, just not in the way Russia wants them included.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin sounds like a kid making up new rules when he realizes he is losing. \nNobody liked that kid.", ">\n\nHahahhahahahhaha No. No, Dmitry Peskov - you can blow all of that nonsense right back up Pooty-Poot’s Ass. \nRussia will be giving up: Everything including Crimea. You’ll also be playing for every inch of damage and debris, rebuilding Ukraine, building their schools and power stations, and paying for their education. Hell, Putin has killed so many Russian business leaders (and their entire families to claim their wealth), that Russia may depend on Ukraine to provide industrial and political leadership for the next 100 years. Russia may find itself part of Ukraine and the EU.", ">\n\nRussia is that bully that needs punched in the face. I get everyone is treading lightly, but I feel like this is the only way to stop this", ">\n\nThief says that court case must include stolen items from home he robbed. Only he raped and killed the occupiers too. RuZZia is a terrorist state.", ">\n\n\"HOW IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?? WE WILL STOP THE WAR IF YOU JUST LET US WIN! COME ON!\"", ">\n\nWe all know there will be no peace negotiations before the Russian military is either out of military arsenal or have lost approximately half a million people. For the sake of Russia's future, let's hope that the former comes first.", ">\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\nIf they would rather die committing atrocities against their neighbours, then perhaps Russia does not deserve anybody being concerned over its future.", ">\n\n\nIf those half-million Russians took to the streets of Moscow they could have this whole situation sorted. Those are the same sorts of numbers that brought down the USSR.\n\nFrom my understanding, those living in Moscow and St Petersburg aren't sent to war yet. Maybe that's the reason.", ">\n\nThen forget about peace. Ukraine should remove them all by force of arms.\nEvery town liberated from Russian occupation has had mass graves and torture chambers. Russian rule is worse than war. They seized Ukraine's industrial heartland, their southern coastal ports, and some of their best agricultural land and land with recently discovered mineral and energy resources. This is not acceptable. Forget about negotiations with the Russians. Forcibly drive them out.", ">\n\nUkraine: “no”", ">\n\nNever has a country been more boorish than Ruzzia.", ">\n\nUkraine has the right to a special operation in the annexed regions to save the ukrainian majority from the russians.\nRussia should understand this argument ;P", ">\n\nfor someone that's losing a war they sure have a lot of demands", ">\n\nWorld says Ukraine peace plan must include Putin getting fucked.", ">\n\nSince when to the losers get to dictate the conditions for their retreat?", ">\n\n\"Annexed regions will be returned to Ukraine.\"\nThere, done.", ">\n\nWell then no peace. Fuck Russia. More Russians to fertilize Ukrainian soil.", ">\n\nKinda crazy. When you think that Russia are ALREADY the largest country in the world by landmass… and they want MORE?!? Fuck them.", ">\n\nI agree wholeheartedly. Any peace plans must include the return of any annexed regions.\nWeird that Russia is admitting there can be no peace while they continue to attempt annexing regions from Ukraine but hey, good on them for acknowledging their poorly planned war should end with no gains for Russia.", ">\n\nSure. “Russia doesn’t get to annex anything. Including Ukrainian territory.”", ">\n\nPutin really wants to be like Hitler with his appeasement like peace talks.", ">\n\nHe got away with being offered appeasement terms in 2014, and is desperately trying to do it again now.\nLuckily the world sees through his bullshit now.", ">\n\nUkraine has also been arming up and training hard since then.", ">\n\nThis is why I think that there will be no peace until Russia has been beaten in the field.", ">\n\nOh okay so no peace then. \nCool cool.", ">\n\nSeems reasonable - Russia pulls out of the annexed regions including Crimea, then there can be peace.", ">\n\nI agree. Any peace plan must include Crimea going back to Ukraine. Let's make a deal, Putin!", ">\n\n\"I stole your Xbox. Let's make peace as long as I can keep your Xbox\"", ">\n\nWhat a cluster.\nPutin can't leave and save face without this.\nUkraine will never agree to those terms though Putin probably can't accept less.\nWhat a colossally stupid move to create a scenario where your enemy has nothing to lose.\nMeanwhile, the US doesn't have to fire a shot, just keep shoveling money at it and the Putin Russia will slowly dismantle itself while the world watches this embarrassment. I cannot think of a more beneficial situation for the United States.\nLavrov has become the Sean Spicer of the planet.\nI wish Tom Clancy were alive to see this.", ">\n\nI agree any peace plan must include returning annexed territories to Ukraine, including Crimea.", ">\n\n“We want peace, really we do”\n“Ok, what are your terms?”\n“The unconditional surrender of your country and land”\n“No”\n“WHY ARE YOU GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEACE”", ">\n\nWe agree. The peace must include returning those territories to Ukraine", ">\n\nUntil the next \"special military operation\" couple of years ahead in which russia, full of shit and after rebuilding their military just enough, start a new invasion under the fabricated pretext that Ukraine broke the peace agreement and they'll now \"legitimately\" retake the initial plan until it eventually halts, then there'll be new \"peace talks\" offering the same, bad-faith terms in which \"Ukraine have to give us more\". \"Peace agreement\" is just another form of the russian well known \"perfidy mentality\". Nothing but a strategy to buy some time to rebuild their military strenght while playing massive efforts into trying to disrupt Ukraine's international (NATO) support. Wasn't for that \"nuisance\" of russian's failure in taking it by force, they'd still be commiting some barbaric acts against Ukranian civilians to claim their land and set in motion more ethnical cleansing strategies (much like the nazis had no shame in doing to what they classified as the \"untermensch\").\n Not even a full withdraw from Ukrainian land can grant any peace, not for Ukraine nor for the neighbouring countries.", ">\n\n-Demand the maximum\n-dont negotiate\n-get something you didnt have before\nDont let em get away with it, crimea is ukraine, it will forever be, there is no peace with crimea as a part of russia", ">\n\nKremlin’s behaviour is like a spoiled high school bully.", ">\n\nYeah that's why it's a permanent non-starter.", ">\n\nOnly if Ukraine gets to claim Russia in return.", ">\n\nThief says surrender plan must include solen money.", ">\n\nNo; the purpose of those regions are to make ukraine indefensible.", ">\n\nAnyone else throw up a little in their mouth when they see Peskov? What a creep", ">\n\nThis is just Russia begging. It's not a serious negotiation, they are literally asking for something so they don't have to suffer such a humiliating loss.", ">\n\nIf Russia is rewarded with territory, it will continue to invade. You always get more of what is rewarded.", ">\n\nI tend to agree. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of all annexed regions back to Ukraine.", ">\n\nSuch bullshit.\nUkraine should demand some Russian territory just for having to listen to that nonsense.", ">\n\nKremlin makes at least one insane statement a day at this point.\nKremlin can go fuck itself.", ">\n\nUkraine to Russia: that's OK, we can go on killing you all day long for as long as it takes.", ">\n\nSo they admit that they're annexing parts of Ukraine?", ">\n\nI'm sure y'all want a pony, too. The burglar doesn't get to break in, steal shit, then determine what they get to keep in the plea deal.\nAny Ukraine peace deal must include Russia getting the fuck off Ukranian land, full stop.", ">\n\nNothing Russia says can be taken in good faith based on their track record ever since Putin became supreme leader. This is simple logic. He’s an old dog that can’t learn new tricks, so now he’s like a magician on stage trying to pull off the separating thumb trick to an adult audience.", ">\n\nThis is why everyone saying that Putin is open to peace talks is spouting Russian propaganda.", ">\n\nKremlin is scared and bluffing!", ">\n\nIt does include them. Russia isn't allowed anywhere in Ukraine, and no one respects their ridiculous claims. No fly zone and NATO and coalition involvement now. Stop giving this shitlicks time to get any momentum.", ">\n\nThe Kremlin is making peace offers the same way the Civilization 6 AI makes peace offers after they initiated the war.", ">\n\nAt least they are now admitting what everybody knew all along. This is about natural resources and the fragile ego of some old pinko piece of shit.", ">\n\nSuck my grits there krem boy", ">\n\nAnd Ukraine says any peace plan must involve Putin walking across a field, sticking his head between his legs, and kissing his own arse.", ">\n\n*Must include annexed regions returned to Ukraine.", ">\n\nThe only peace is if Putin is replaced. His successor can blame him for all of this, withdraw and any damages or changes can be blamed on Putin. It’s the only way this war will end. \nPutin isn’t going to take any option that isn’t saving face and/or has some reward like an annexed area. He already knows they’re gonna join NATO and be well armed for many years.", ">\n\nThey need to just get the hell out of Ukraine! The whole world needs to stand up to the batshit crazy dictator who called Ukrainians Nazis! The Kremlin are the Nazis!", ">\n\nI guess the Kremlin is prepared to kill off even more of their own people then. They know very well Ukraine will not accept this.", ">\n\nThey're right. It can include the Russians leaving the annexed region of crimea", ">\n\nNobody's even talking peace plan. The world's fine with destroying and punishing Russia until it stops all aggression. Putin's regime is just a disgusting, disturbing relic of fascism. That's not something you barter with. It's something you defeat.", ">\n\nUkraine says sure, after you get the hell out of them. Crimea too.", ">\n\nShould read, Kiev peace plan must include full Russian withdrawal from Ukraine with full reparations and reimbursement for defense and military aid.", ">\n\nAnd there it is. All the Russia fans keep begging for Ukraine to have peace talks and Ukraine keeps saying it needs the territories Russia illegally annexed back and Russia refuses to negotiate. Fuck off Russia lovers.", ">\n\nHe's right, there will be no peace until Russia gives back all the annexed regions.", ">\n\nAbsolutely Russia must leave all annexed regions including Crimea and at the Russian boarder a 300 km mined no go zone .", ">\n\nRussia needs to leave and return all Ukrainian territory. It needs to pay for all damage and rebuilding: that’s billions of dollars. It needs to pay for all the people they’ve killed and triple for each civilian they murdered. Their entire political leadership and relevant military command structure needs to be arrested and extradited to a European country and tried by a UN international court; when they’re all convicted they need to go to prison for life. That’s the starting point. Peace and consequences.", ">\n\nMore plainly put: Kremlin admits true motivation for invading Ukraine is imperialistic conquest.\nNo doubt conspiracy theorists the world over are currently performing the necessary mental gymnastics to avoid admitting what the Kremlin has just said explicitly...", ">\n\nI think America needs to Annex Kallingrad and Transnistria and Japan the Saklin Islands, then start these peace discussions.....", ">\n\nHere is a counter offer", ">\n\nIf the Kremlin told me the sky was blue I'd still look up and check.", ">\n\nWalk into the peace plans and announce that Ukraine has annexed St. Petersburg.", ">\n\nNnnnnnnnnope. The Kremlin has nothing to bargain with.", ">\n\nThen there is no peace plan", ">\n\nThe deal most certainlywill include those annexed regions.\nNot in the way they'd hope though.", ">\n\nI agree, Russia must return every bit of the annexed regions. That’s a good starting place for negotiations. Thanks, Russia!", ">\n\nGive an inch and they will be wanting the Czech Reoublic back next.", ">\n\nIn other words:\nKremlin says they are not ready to discuss peace - without actually saying they are 'not ready to discuss peace'.", ">\n\nHe's right. Any Ukraine peace plan must include the return of the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nWE ALL KNOW ITS BS. can we stop with this? Russia got its ass kicked. The whole world saw it.", ">\n\nI agree, they should contain the annexed regions, as in russia should give them back.", ">\n\nUkraine says that any peace plan will be negotiated after all Russian troops leave Ukrainian territory including Crimea.", ">\n\nFuck Putin. Give him nothing.", ">\n\nwe will keep all the land we have stolen, but we want peace. Now if you'll only sit down and agree we can stop the carnage and getting the shit kicked out of us.", ">\n\nThe largest country in the world, by far, wants to keep the land it just stole in order to obtain peace in a war it's losing??\nI'd say no deal.", ">\n\nAmazing how much they don’t realize they are the aggressors and losers who will only continue to die and marginalize their backwater country as this goes on. They are in no place to make demands. \nThe on,y power Russia has is posturing. It’s like toxic masculinity personified as a country.", ">\n\nLike Ukraine, Russia should now be forced to give up all their nukes for peace...", ">\n\nUkraine agrees. Any peace plan must include Russia returning the illegally annexed regions.", ">\n\nThe peace plan for sure will include annexed regions. What else? The plan is leave the annexed regions, pay rebuilding the annexed regions and everything else, and never come back to the annexed regions.", ">\n\nNot saying international politics is the same as online pvp, but usually it's the last 2-3 minutes of a 30 minute game when my opponent talks the most shit and cries before losing.", ">\n\nHow about giving Ukraine back it’s territory, fucking off out of Ukraine. And then maybe NATO considers allowing Russia to exist.", ">\n\n“…must include annexed regions”\nFuck off. If this war keeps going Ukraine will annex Moscow. Not to be US centric, pardon me, but Putin’s only real hope is if another radical Republican becomes president and takes the US out of Nato (which was a goal of Trump). Putin is trying to play the long game, gambling on his stooges winning elections in the west. We must be on guard at all times.", ">\n\nGo home Kremlin, you're drunk", ">\n\nStarting and losing a war of conquest is really not the winning play the Kremlin thinks it is.", ">\n\nPerfect. Time for Ukraine to take them all back, annex some Russian territory, then say \"a deal's a deal\"!", ">\n\nI'm sure they will -- as part of Ukraine.", ">\n\nThis is the problem with the morons who keep going on about peace talks. Peace talks are a win for Russia, they'll force concessions on Ukraine to end the war. They'll gain from their agression. Peace talks can only begin when Russia are out of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.", ">\n\nFunny how it's gone full circle to 1918 when the Germans were asking for terms...eventually they were forced to surrender unconditionally to the soviets. Looks like it's heading towards Versailles 2.0", ">\n\nI imagine it will.\nSpecifically, it will say “Russia to forfeit all claims to regions it has annexed, withdraw all military presence and repatriate all people forcefully evicted from their homes”.", ">\n\nBut losers don’t dictate terms", ">\n\nSays the country getting their ass handed to them by annexed areas", ">\n\nSure thing. Let’s annex Moscow to Switzerland.", ">\n\nAnd Russia can go fuck itself. They pretty much proved to the world that they can't be trusted with their whole: \"HURR DURR WE NOT GONNA INVADE, RUSSIAPHOBIA MAN RUSSIA PHOBIA\". They need to be knocked the fuck down", ">\n\nWhat’s to stop Putin from taking more after a peace treaty is signed?\nPeople forget Chamberlain in WW2 and ceding territory to Hitler. That for sure aged well.", ">\n\nRussia is at an end, it needs to be chopped up into its ethnic/cultural regions and never be allowed to exist in its current form ever again. Russia is a parasite to the world and needs to end.", ">\n\nOldest trick in the book. Germany was a fan of wanting peace during WW2. If anything, there will be a large act of aggression after this.", ">\n\nOh I know any future peace plan will definitely include the annexed regions…. Being returned to Ukraine", ">\n\nSince when do losers dictate terms?", ">\n\nI'd prefer my tax dollars are spent supporting Ukraine until the Ukrainians want to stop fighting. If the Ukranians want to keep killing a bunch of corrupt terrorists until they're all dead that's fine with me.\nRussia is a terrorist state and the world is better off without it.", ">\n\nNewsflash Russia: you don’t dictate anything. This is your Vietnam and if you don’t wake up this foolish war will ruin you", ">\n\nThese Guys have their heads so far up their asses that they think they have bargaining power.\nIt's almost as if the Russian Economy ISN'T SLIPPING", ">\n\nKremlin can negotiate with the launch tubes of HIMARS in their mouths", ">\n\nIf you listen to Fiona Hill, a former advisor to the security counsil in the US, she talk a lot about Putin and his tactics. He is loosing the war and so he is trying the shift the narrative all the time. I think there were some comments about it called \"firehouse of \"something\"\". \nHis tactic has all along being to take crimea and Donbas (and part if now while of kherson and the other regions for water and flow of goods security). This was did not go as he thought it was. The gerogian was so sudden the world didn't have time to blink. So with the 2014. And we should have pushed back then as the US and the UK gave safety guarantees back 1994 that their sovereign integrity would be protected in them giving up their nuclear arsenal. So we have a responsibility now to help them. \nThe Russians cannot win this war on the original goals as countries are finally grasping how severe the situation actually is. \nSo what is he doing now? Changing narrative (or lying if you will). He talks constantly doing nuclear saber rustling to try and scare Europe. We should not even have this conversation because it is his narrative. Not once have anyone threatened russia with nuclear weapons, so we talk about it? It is only him. And you see, this ia what they are doing. Deflecting deflecting deflecting, untill you almoat forget about Ukraine. They want to get out of it but on their terms. So this is why they are doing. \nLaugh it off until the come crawling to the MEDIATION table." ]
When will they actually have nukes?	[]
> Here is a possible timetable from a thoroughly reputable source.	[ "When will they actually have nukes?" ]
> So within 12 months we should be expecting Israel and Iran to go to war.	[ "When will they actually have nukes?", ">\n\nHere is a possible timetable from a thoroughly reputable source." ]
> I'd think only a few targeted strikes and Iran can no longer make anything like what they have or will make.	[ "When will they actually have nukes?", ">\n\nHere is a possible timetable from a thoroughly reputable source.", ">\n\nSo within 12 months we should be expecting Israel and Iran to go to war." ]
> And no retaliation of ANY kind would be pursued by Iran?	[ "When will they actually have nukes?", ">\n\nHere is a possible timetable from a thoroughly reputable source.", ">\n\nSo within 12 months we should be expecting Israel and Iran to go to war.", ">\n\nI'd think only a few targeted strikes and Iran can no longer make anything like what they have or will make." ]
> Like it matters to Israel. They some cold MFers. Pretty sure they've done it before.	[ "When will they actually have nukes?", ">\n\nHere is a possible timetable from a thoroughly reputable source.", ">\n\nSo within 12 months we should be expecting Israel and Iran to go to war.", ">\n\nI'd think only a few targeted strikes and Iran can no longer make anything like what they have or will make.", ">\n\nAnd no retaliation of ANY kind would be pursued by Iran?" ]

Subsets and Splits

No community queries yet

The top public SQL queries from the community will appear here once available.