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they in good earnest applauded those things that he only liked in jest;
and from hence you may gather how little courtiers would value either me
or my counsels."

To this I answered, "You have done me a great kindness in this relation;
for as everything has been related by you both wisely and pleasantly, so
you have made me imagine that I was in my own country and grown young
again, by recalling that good Cardinal to my thoughts, in whose family I
was bred from my childhood; and though you are, upon other accounts, very
dear to me, yet you are the dearer because you honour his memory so much;
but, after all this, I cannot change my opinion, for I still think that
if you could overcome that aversion which you have to the courts of
princes, you might, by the advice which it is in your power to give, do a
great deal of good to mankind, and this is the chief design that every
good man ought to propose to himself in living; for your friend Plato
thinks that nations will be happy when either philosophers become kings
or kings become philosophers. It is no wonder if we are so far from that
happiness while philosophers will not think it their duty to assist kings
with their counsels." "They are not so base-minded," said he, "but that
they would willingly do it; many of them have already done it by their
books, if those that are in power would but hearken to their good advice.
But Plato judged right, that except kings themselves became philosophers,
they who from their childhood are corrupted with false notions would
never fall in entirely with the counsels of philosophers, and this he
himself found to be true in the person of Dionysius.

"Do not you think that if I were about any king, proposing good laws to
him, and endeavouring to root out all the cursed seeds of evil that I
found in him, I should either be turned out of his court, or, at least,
be laughed at for my pains? For instance, what could I signify if I were
about the King of France, and were called into his cabinet council, where
several wise men, in his hearing, were proposing many expedients; as, by
what arts and practices Milan may be kept, and Naples, that has so often
slipped out of their hands, recovered; how the Venetians, and after them
the rest of Italy, may be subdued; and then how Flanders, Brabant, and
all Burgundy, and some other kingdoms which he has swallowed already in
his designs, may be added to his empire? One proposes a league with the
Venetians, to be kept as long as he finds his account in it, and that he
ought to communicate counsels with them, and give them some share of the
spoil till his success makes him need or fear them less, and then it will
be easily taken out of their hands; another proposes the hiring the
Germans and the securing the Switzers by pensions; another proposes the
gaining the Emperor by money, which is omnipotent with him; another
proposes a peace with the King of Arragon, and, in order to cement it,
the yielding up the King of Navarre's pretensions; another thinks that
the Prince of Castile is to be wrought on by the hope of an alliance, and
that some of his courtiers are to be gained to the French faction by
pensions. The hardest point of all is, what to do with England; a treaty
of peace is to be set on foot, and, if their alliance is not to be
depended on, yet it is to be made as firm as possible, and they are to be
called friends, but suspected as enemies: therefore the Scots are to be
kept in readiness to be let loose upon England on every occasion; and
some banished nobleman is to be supported underhand (for by the League it
cannot be done avowedly) who has a pretension to the crown, by which
means that suspected prince may be kept in awe. Now when things are in
so great a fermentation, and so many gallant men are joining counsels how
to carry on the war, if so mean a man as I should stand up and wish them
to change all their counsels--to let Italy alone and stay at home, since
the kingdom of France was indeed greater than could be well governed by
one man; that therefore he ought not to think of adding others to it; and
if, after this, I should propose to them the resolutions of the
Achorians, a people that lie on the south-east of Utopia, who long ago
engaged in war in order to add to the dominions of their prince another
kingdom, to which he had some pretensions by an ancient alliance: this
they conquered, but found that the trouble of keeping it was equal to
that by which it was gained; that the conquered people were always either
in rebellion or exposed to foreign invasions, while they were obliged to
be incessantly at war, either for or against them, and consequently could
never disband their army; that in the meantime they were oppressed with
taxes, their money went out of the kingdom, their blood was spilt for the
glory of their king without procuring the least advantage to the people,
who received not the smallest benefit from it even in time of peace; and
that, their manners being corrupted by a long war, robbery and murders
everywhere abounded, and their laws fell into contempt; while their king,
distracted with the care of two kingdoms, was the less able to apply his
mind to the interest of either. When they saw this, and that there would
be no end to these evils, they by joint counsels made an humble address
to their king, desiring him to choose which of the two kingdoms he had
the greatest mind to keep, since he could not hold both; for they were
too great a people to be governed by a divided king, since no man would
willingly have a groom that should be in common between him and another.
Upon which the good prince was forced to quit his new kingdom to one of
his friends (who was not long after dethroned), and to be contented with
his old one. To this I would add that after all those warlike attempts,
the vast confusions, and the consumption both of treasure and of people
that must follow them, perhaps upon some misfortune they might be forced
to throw up all at last; therefore it seemed much more eligible that the
king should improve his ancient kingdom all he could, and make it
flourish as much as possible; that he should love his people, and be
beloved of them; that he should live among them, govern them gently and
let other kingdoms alone, since that which had fallen to his share was
big enough, if not too big, for him:--pray, how do you think would such a
speech as this be heard?"

"I confess," said I, "I think not very well."

"But what," said he, "if I should sort with another kind of ministers,
whose chief contrivances and consultations were by what art the prince's
treasures might be increased? where one proposes raising the value of
specie when the king's debts are large, and lowering it when his revenues

they in good earnest applauded those things that he only liked in jest;

and from hence you may gather how little courtiers would value either me

or my counsels."

To this I answered, "You have done me a great kindness in this relation;

for as everything has been related by you both wisely and pleasantly, so

you have made me imagine that I was in my own country and grown young

again, by recalling that good Cardinal to my thoughts, in whose family I

was bred from my childhood; and though you are, upon other accounts, very

dear to me, yet you are the dearer because you honour his memory so much;

but, after all this, I cannot change my opinion, for I still think that

if you could overcome that aversion which you have to the courts of

princes, you might, by the advice which it is in your power to give, do a

great deal of good to mankind, and this is the chief design that every

good man ought to propose to himself in living; for your friend Plato

thinks that nations will be happy when either philosophers become kings

or kings become philosophers. It is no wonder if we are so far from that

happiness while philosophers will not think it their duty to assist kings

with their counsels." "They are not so base-minded," said he, "but that

they would willingly do it; many of them have already done it by their

books, if those that are in power would but hearken to their good advice.

But Plato judged right, that except kings themselves became philosophers,

they who from their childhood are corrupted with false notions would

never fall in entirely with the counsels of philosophers, and this he

himself found to be true in the person of Dionysius.

"Do not you think that if I were about any king, proposing good laws to

him, and endeavouring to root out all the cursed seeds of evil that I

found in him, I should either be turned out of his court, or, at least,

be laughed at for my pains? For instance, what could I signify if I were

about the King of France, and were called into his cabinet council, where

several wise men, in his hearing, were proposing many expedients; as, by

what arts and practices Milan may be kept, and Naples, that has so often

slipped out of their hands, recovered; how the Venetians, and after them

the rest of Italy, may be subdued; and then how Flanders, Brabant, and

all Burgundy, and some other kingdoms which he has swallowed already in

his designs, may be added to his empire? One proposes a league with the

Venetians, to be kept as long as he finds his account in it, and that he

ought to communicate counsels with them, and give them some share of the

spoil till his success makes him need or fear them less, and then it will

be easily taken out of their hands; another proposes the hiring the

Germans and the securing the Switzers by pensions; another proposes the

gaining the Emperor by money, which is omnipotent with him; another

proposes a peace with the King of Arragon, and, in order to cement it,

the yielding up the King of Navarre's pretensions; another thinks that

the Prince of Castile is to be wrought on by the hope of an alliance, and

that some of his courtiers are to be gained to the French faction by

pensions. The hardest point of all is, what to do with England; a treaty

of peace is to be set on foot, and, if their alliance is not to be

depended on, yet it is to be made as firm as possible, and they are to be

called friends, but suspected as enemies: therefore the Scots are to be

kept in readiness to be let loose upon England on every occasion; and

some banished nobleman is to be supported underhand (for by the League it

cannot be done avowedly) who has a pretension to the crown, by which

means that suspected prince may be kept in awe. Now when things are in

so great a fermentation, and so many gallant men are joining counsels how

to carry on the war, if so mean a man as I should stand up and wish them

to change all their counsels--to let Italy alone and stay at home, since

the kingdom of France was indeed greater than could be well governed by

one man; that therefore he ought not to think of adding others to it; and

if, after this, I should propose to them the resolutions of the

Achorians, a people that lie on the south-east of Utopia, who long ago

engaged in war in order to add to the dominions of their prince another

kingdom, to which he had some pretensions by an ancient alliance: this

they conquered, but found that the trouble of keeping it was equal to

that by which it was gained; that the conquered people were always either

in rebellion or exposed to foreign invasions, while they were obliged to

be incessantly at war, either for or against them, and consequently could

never disband their army; that in the meantime they were oppressed with

taxes, their money went out of the kingdom, their blood was spilt for the

glory of their king without procuring the least advantage to the people,

who received not the smallest benefit from it even in time of peace; and

that, their manners being corrupted by a long war, robbery and murders

everywhere abounded, and their laws fell into contempt; while their king,

distracted with the care of two kingdoms, was the less able to apply his

mind to the interest of either. When they saw this, and that there would

be no end to these evils, they by joint counsels made an humble address

to their king, desiring him to choose which of the two kingdoms he had

the greatest mind to keep, since he could not hold both; for they were

too great a people to be governed by a divided king, since no man would

willingly have a groom that should be in common between him and another.

Upon which the good prince was forced to quit his new kingdom to one of

his friends (who was not long after dethroned), and to be contented with

his old one. To this I would add that after all those warlike attempts,

the vast confusions, and the consumption both of treasure and of people

that must follow them, perhaps upon some misfortune they might be forced

to throw up all at last; therefore it seemed much more eligible that the

king should improve his ancient kingdom all he could, and make it

flourish as much as possible; that he should love his people, and be

beloved of them; that he should live among them, govern them gently and

let other kingdoms alone, since that which had fallen to his share was

big enough, if not too big, for him:--pray, how do you think would such a

speech as this be heard?"

"I confess," said I, "I think not very well."

"But what," said he, "if I should sort with another kind of ministers,

whose chief contrivances and consultations were by what art the prince's

treasures might be increased? where one proposes raising the value of

specie when the king's debts are large, and lowering it when his revenues